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The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

arstechnica.co.uk

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Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#121

Post by alanwatts »

hartpuff wrote: post #114
hodwik wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need a military. All states do -- its part of their duty to their citizenry. The problem in the US is that our hippy-run academia are driving the smart people out of jobs in the military (and police force for that matter), and it's putting us in a terrible position. The only way to fix it is for smart people to start joining the military again.

I thought the problem is that, 25 years after its only serious opponent in the world disappeared, the US spends as much on the military as the next 7 countries - five of which are US allies - combined.

"A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual death."

-Beyond Vietnam, Dr. King, speech given exactly 1 year before assasination

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#122

Post by Jtsummers »

hodwik wrote: post #104
DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A drone strike typically kills identified terrorist targets but also unidentified targets. The trick is that as long as bystanding casualities (also children yes - or as the drone operators call them "fun sized terrorists") have not been identified they're automatically counted as terrorists. (see also https://theintercept.com/drone-papers/ ) I don't think now that the beast has been unleashed it can be controlled or…

We need a military. All states do -- its part of their duty to their citizenry. The problem in the US is that our hippy-run academia are driving the smart people out of jobs in the military (and police force for that matter), and it's putting us in a terrible position. The only way to fix it is for smart people to start joining the military again.

Academia doesn't drive anyone out of the military. It may dissuade some people from joining.

US military culture drives people out.

Either by being surrounded by lazy or coasting individuals who think of the military as just a job (discouraging to more ideologically minded people).

Or by being hammered by the ugly, jingoistic rhetoric and motivations of some peers and leadership.

Or by being too smart and standing too tall, upsetting the boat. The US military, large portions at least, strongly discourage some aspects of intellectualism and, certainly, individualism. Smart people suffer in this environment if they're not power-motivated, and the good ones usually aren't.

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#123

Post by EGreg »

The more I read about US activities abroad, the more I realize Chomsky's right. Are sovereign countries supposed to tolerate a certain level of drone strikes by the USA (4500 people in Pakistan killed in the last decade) based on -- now revealed -- machine learning hunches?

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#124

Post by [deleted] »

donatj wrote: post #90

We're killing people in a country were not even at war with over statistics. Not evidence, but statistics. People who statistical might have something against us. Since when has this been grounds for killing someone? This is utterly terrifying. Just imagine if someone decided to do this to us. How does Pakistan feel about all this? This is approaching Auschwitz levels of evil.

[deleted]

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#125

Post by alanwatts »

botterworkshop wrote: post #79

It's ignorant to assume any targets revealed by this program wouldn't be given a human intelligence analyst to verify accuracy before risking millions of dollars on a predator strike and the potential risk it was bad information. Enough said.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#126

Post by jjtheblunt »

Houshalter wrote: post #7

They literally named it Skynet. They have an evil sense of humor. Actually using machine learning to detect terrorists isn't a terrible idea. But you are going to get an error rate, and probably a high one in the noisy real world. Maybe only 50% of the people you detect are actually terrorists. Maybe it's even worse than that. We can't even test it because there is no validation set and unreliable labels. The reasona…

Disingenuous title: NSA only collects data (SIGINT) and secures transmissions and identity of friendlies (SIGSEC). What others do with the data is not done by NSA.

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#127

Post by [deleted] »

realusername wrote: post #29
agd wrote: post #13

Big data analysis + mass surveillance is a frightening prospect. Of course you can train software to look for 'terrorists', but you could also train it to look for: - whistleblowers - minority groups (e.g. gay people, particular religious beliefs, political affiliation) - political dissidents - journalists whose behaviour changes - personal vulnerabilities (affairs, mental health issues etc) Think what authoritarian…

To be honest, being someone interested in lots of things, just based on my browser history you could also put me in the terrorist box.

[deleted]

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#128

Post by Karunamon »

arca_vorago wrote: post #112
hodwik wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need a military. All states do -- its part of their duty to their citizenry. The problem in the US is that our hippy-run academia are driving the smart people out of jobs in the military (and police force for that matter), and it's putting us in a terrible position. The only way to fix it is for smart people to start joining the military again.

This is absolute bullshit. The problem is that we need a military that is actually going to man the fuck up when an O-5+ decides to push some unconstitutional program on the people. What has happened isnt that hippy academia is jacking up the military, but rather that the military has been kicking out the kind of people who arent afraid to tell truth to power, and are increasingly making choices and then only hiring…

New world order conspiracies? On HN? Please don't.

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#129

Post by Aeolos »

alanwatts wrote: post #118

So yes, a state would not be much of a state without some form of military. But why do we need separate states? Edit: this is a genuine question about the practicality of a concept (the "nation-state") that was invented during the Gutenberg era of the printing press, and how such a concept has become impractical in the age of instantaneous international interconnectivity and economic globalization. Downvoters: How ar…

You really want to know? Because of regression towards the mean.

Having a single state would mean that the US couldn't afford to have a significantly higher standard of living compared to the rest of the world. In fact, 1st world countries would have to meet 3rd world countries somewhere in the middle.

(Assuming you are living in the states) Would you be willing to live on a wage of $5000 a year?

Edit: see here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28no...

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#130

Post by pc86 »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #100
Houshalter wrote: post #7

They literally named it Skynet. They have an evil sense of humor. Actually using machine learning to detect terrorists isn't a terrible idea. But you are going to get an error rate, and probably a high one in the noisy real world. Maybe only 50% of the people you detect are actually terrorists. Maybe it's even worse than that. We can't even test it because there is no validation set and unreliable labels. The reasona…

Wait wait wait. So they're killing people based on a model that fails Statistics 101 !? No accounting for base rates? No cross-validation!? God fucking damnit, why the fuck does our government think killing should be cheaper and easier than healing!? We put new medical treatments through decades of difficult scientific tests, but have none at all for strictly invalid ways to kill people?

I do not think you completely understood the article.
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