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Too many people have peed in the pool

stephenfry.com

401–410 of 555 posts

Re: Too many people have peed in the pool

#401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly - it's too easy to say that Twitter is simply a reflection of society itself, technology is not a completely neutral pass-through filter. The 140-character limit strips all nuance out of conversation, so it's no surprise that when it comes to controversial topics everyone is an asshole. It turns out we need more than 140 chars when talking about complicated, important topics. More than that, Twitter's choice…

Honest question here - if you believe the issue is that information is too readily available, what is the solution to avoid brigading and the like? Segregating spaces? Safe speech spaces? Pandora's box has been opened in social media and the internet, and it's not going to close again. I believe what we're seeing is the happy crossroads of cavemen tribal thought that we got so used to before instant communication, an…

I think casting my view as "information is too readily available" is a vast oversimplification.

Information being readily available isn't the issue, the issue is the ease in responding too it - more specifically the ease in responding thoughtlessly and flippantly, and the empathy gap that entails.

IMO the empathy gap is the problem we face socially as we move into the Internet age, and solving must in some part involve system design - this seems to be something Facebook has been aware of, but that Twitter hasn't.

> "Pandora's box has been opened in social media and the internet, and it's not going to close again."

Ehh, this isn't a complaint about social media in general, it's a complaint about Twitter's model in specific. Many social media services are working just fine without creating the epic shitstorms that seem to surround Twitter on a weekly basis - and I think the demographics of these services are leading indicators of who's succeeding and failing.

Facebook for example has largely solved this by defaulting things in such a way that limit post virality. They've also avoided a lot of abuse problems by clearly delineating ownership of spaces (if you post something abusive on my Wall, I can delete it). As opposed to Twitter where they've steadfastly maximized user ability to invade others' spaces but minimized ability to defend one's own (i.e., you can insert yourself into any conversation anywhere without any say on the part of the participants, and they can do it to you).

The adoption of Snapchat is also indicative - those who don't use Snapchat like to attribute its rise to teenagers sexting each other, but in reality a huge driver of their success is that people got tired of posting things for the judgment of the peanut gallery. The ability to share things with exactly the people you want (outside of the realm of direct messaging) is useful, and those who grew up under the pervasive pall of Facebook and Twitter are saying no to the old model. There is an overt rejection/separation of the "broadcast" mode of social media that those of us in the slightly-older set have gotten used to.

The most promising risers in social media aren't broadcast-style affairs, and they resemble a much more complex form of IRC/group messaging than anything else.

> "We used to only be able to pile on our family and friends."

This is really key - and drives at the heart of the problem. The issue right now isn't that people are being offended - a lot of that shit really is offensive. It's disingenuous to pretend that Twitter outrage is entirely synthetic by people who enjoy being offended (the whole concept of a "professional victim" is IMO reductionist and woefully inaccurate).

The issue is that responses to people saying offensive, ignorant shit is no longer proportional to the ignorant shit itself. There is a virtue to proportional response, and we're witnessing what happens when proportional response goes away - every thing, big or small, is automatically a nuclear war.

The structure of the system has a great influence on this. On Facebook because of the adherence to a voluntary opt-in social graph, responses are in general pretty proportional. If I say something racist in a post, I'll get called out by my friends and family, and none of them are going to SWAT me. On the other hand, if I say something vile on Twitter, I'll likely be receiving death threats.

It's even true in this specific case - IMO Stephen Fry's comments were shitty, and I think he ought to be called out on it - but a million-user pileup?

> "Combine that with the NEED FOR FAME that we are fed by media. Everyone wants to go viral. Everyone wants to be part of something famous."

I actually think this is becoming less true over time. One thing I've noticed is that there's a pretty big generational gap between my "generation" that grew up without social media (basically late 20s and beyond), and those who grew up in it (mid 20s and earlier). The "everyone wants to go viral" thing is IMO stronger in our generation than it is for younger people, and part of it is that they've internalized the downsides more so than the rest of us.

I mean sure, I don't think we'll ever fully rid the human race of the need for validation and fame, but it honestly seems like the younger generation is exercising a lot more care in who and how they associate with others.

Re: Too many people have peed in the pool

#402
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe we just need a 'dislike' button along with the 'like' button. It'd certainly be an interesting experiment. 100% agree. And note that HN is already running this experiment; we have downvotes as well as upvotes.

And I personally think it is even more insidious. When I'm on facebook and see some extreme rightwing nutjob upvote ring I see what's going on On HN on a lot of downvoted commets it makes sense, they are poorly written and full of bs. But every time there is a little more political and/or contentious issue on all I see is Political Correctness police mercilessly downvoting and flagkillig anything that dares to even d…

> Political Correctness police mercilessly downvoting and flagkillig anything that dares to even doubt.

We really need to move beyond the idea that just because an idea is contentious, it must be downvoted due to the "PC police", and not just due to "unpopular".

And seriously, blaming the rise of the right in Europe as being due to downvote/mark-unpopular mechanisms? That has to be the most banal political statement I've heard all year.

In any case, "the right to be heard" is not the same as "the right to be uncriticised".

Re: Too many people have peed in the pool

#403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Property rights are involuntary for the have-nots. The basis of capitalism isn't 'voluntary exchange', but property rights and the accumulation of capital.

Is there a name for the thing where every discussion online eventually becomes about stridently defending or bashing capitalism? SOME PUBLIC FIGURE: I'm leaving twitter, too many trolls. [ 50 pages of discussion ] AGGRIEVED COMMIE: ACTUALLY, capitalism sucks! (As it happens, totally agree with the commie stuff though. All the cheery talk about liberty and voluntarism is idiotic since it acts like primitive accumulati…

> Is there a name for the thing where every discussion online eventually becomes about stridently defending or bashing capitalism?

as a filthy commie, i hope it's the reawakening of the global proletariat :3

Re: Too many people have peed in the pool

#404
post #398
post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, this fails Karl Popper's criteria, don't tolerate the intolerant. It's worth pointing out what he meant by ‘intolerant’: | they are not prepared to meet us on the level | of rational argument, but begin by denouncing | all argument; they may forbid their followers | to listen to rational argument, because it is | deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments | by the use of their fists or pistols. ‘Intoler…

Thank you, I had no idea that the statement was tempered that way. The quip and the explanation together are a much more powerful and useful idea than the quip alone. This article ( http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/12/29/the-spirit-of-the-first... ) expresses much the same thing, but takes a couple of pages to do it. Having a word ("intolerant" has been diluted, but maybe we can forge a new one) for people who silence…

You could use 'censors' but that might simply lead into debates over whether shutting down communication between willing parties due to the subject of their speech, in fact, censorship when the government isn't the one doing it.

Re: Too many people have peed in the pool

#405

The problem isn't that this is a Twitter problem. It's that this is a cultural problem. People kinda suck. People kinda suck a lot. I was having a conversation with a friend at lunch, when I started putting ketchup on my hotdog. He looked at me and incredulously questioned, "really? What are you, like, 8 years old?" I had never even heard of the idea that "only children put ketchup on a hotdog." Yet here was someone…

Ze Frank has a great piece on how we make fun of other people for what they like, and why we should stop ourselves from doing it.

"Don't Yuck My Yum": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knro0i2JH44

Re: Too many people have peed in the pool

#406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with downvoting (at least simple versions) is that it allows separate communities to interfere which each others' communications. So, say you have hunters and animal-rights activists. They should be able to talk among themselves on Google+, Twitter, or Facebook without interference from the other side. You don't want one side to start downvoting the other side's posts into oblivion so they can't even talk…

In computer science, when we have too much data to process at once, we shard it. We separate it into manageable chunks and we stop looking at every single data point and just at summaries. I was using this very analogy to explain the advent of CCG "formats" (MTG, Hearthstone) a few days ago and it seems like the same analogy could be used here. There is a point where a discussion/dicussion room contains too much data…

It's the upper limit on our ability to process information. Whether it's data, or whether it's a social circle. I believe we will (until AI is a thing) be constrained and will fail, simply because of our poor ability to store and process information as humans.

Re: Too many people have peed in the pool

#407
post #395

There have been numerous studies showing that outrage is one of the most viral emotions. For whatever reason, seeing something that makes you upset has a very high correlation with people sharing/liking/retweeting. I think this unfortunate fact is what is being born out in social media. Smithsonian had a good short article on it: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/what-emotion-go... Research shows that amaz…

I've always wondered whether you could just have a community that banned outrage. Literally: express outrage, get banned. "Signal boost" someone else's outrage, get banned. It's not welcome within the community. Would this even make sense? Or would this shove so hard against human nature that people would never be able to abide it? (Of course, sometimes you'd be outraged at the community—or its management—and that'd…

> Literally: express outrage, get banned.

What is one to do then when someone does something truly outrageous? Ban the entire community?

Re: Too many people have peed in the pool

#408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better for whom? I think that's condescending. People already know that some forums only contain like-minded people - that's the point! Connecting with like-minded people about some specialized interest is one of the great advantages of the Internet. You can get valuable things out of it, without being under any illusion that you're talking with a diverse crowd. Maybe the issue is that we don't have enough forums for…

If the average person is completely shielded from any kind of discourse surrounding their beliefs, society will suffer. Echo chambers are the main reason politics in the US have become a complete disaster. When you hear the other side's point of view presented by your side, it's going to be biased and will just reinforce your own beliefs.

As evidence of this, think of how many people think that $other_party wants to "destroy America" in some form. Cue (and possibly queue) commenters saying "but $x really does want that!"

I've found that people who claim to know the other side's motivations are projecting for the most part. I catch myself doing it too. Being more aware of bias does not make one less susceptible to it, unfortunately. If anything, it tends to bring overconfidence regarding it :/

Re: Too many people have peed in the pool

#409
post #2

Or maybe you just have to go to a pool in a better neighborhood? After all on Twitter you can choose from whom you're getting status updates, can't you?

Not since Twitter has chosen to start "shadowbanning" users. When this happens, you can explicitly follow someone, but you will not see their messages in your timeline. Unfollowing/refollowing the user seems to clear it at least for a time, but you have to be really paying attention to even notice that it happens. I'm going to guess that it takes the form of a "silent" unfollow on their backend. And on a more opinion…

Monarchists?

Re: Too many people have peed in the pool

#410

There have been numerous studies showing that outrage is one of the most viral emotions. For whatever reason, seeing something that makes you upset has a very high correlation with people sharing/liking/retweeting. I think this unfortunate fact is what is being born out in social media. Smithsonian had a good short article on it: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/what-emotion-go... Research shows that amaz…

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