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Wikipedia starts work on $2.5M internet search engine project to rival Google [pdf]

m.wikimediafoundation.org

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Re: Wikipedia starts work on $2.5M internet search engine project to rival Google [pdf]

#51
post #35

The title is misleading. It's 250k, not 2.5m and the goal is a knowledge engine, not a search engine.

Not only is it a search engine, but it is a grant application that has had WMF staff leaving in droves, and has greatly upset many, many others - who will quite likely also leave. It's very, very sad. And it's also a shameful moment for the WMF. edit: and don't just think it's me saying it. The WMF has had a mass exodus of staff in the last week or so. If you speak to any WMF non-executive staff members directly, you…

Care to explain? Do you have some links/sources?

Re: Wikipedia starts work on $2.5M internet search engine project to rival Google [pdf]

#52
post #35

The title is misleading. It's 250k, not 2.5m and the goal is a knowledge engine, not a search engine.

Not only is it a search engine, but it is a grant application that has had WMF staff leaving in droves, and has greatly upset many, many others - who will quite likely also leave. It's very, very sad. And it's also a shameful moment for the WMF. edit: and don't just think it's me saying it. The WMF has had a mass exodus of staff in the last week or so. If you speak to any WMF non-executive staff members directly, you…

What's wrong with this project? It seems wildly ambitious, but maybe the blockchain makes to possible to succeed where Wikia failed previously.

Re: Wikipedia starts work on $2.5M internet search engine project to rival Google [pdf]

#53
post #35

The title is misleading. It's 250k, not 2.5m and the goal is a knowledge engine, not a search engine.

Not only is it a search engine, but it is a grant application that has had WMF staff leaving in droves, and has greatly upset many, many others - who will quite likely also leave. It's very, very sad. And it's also a shameful moment for the WMF. edit: and don't just think it's me saying it. The WMF has had a mass exodus of staff in the last week or so. If you speak to any WMF non-executive staff members directly, you…

Can you say more/explain? What about the application is so upsetting? What is shameful about this?

The Knight Foundation is about as upstanding as you can get, so it can't be that (full disclosure, I've received funding from them, so I'm definitely not unbiased on that point). So, what exactly is it that's so shameful here?

Re: Wikipedia starts work on $2.5M internet search engine project to rival Google [pdf]

#55

I support it 100%. I love Google but they have too much power and I'm sure they'll start taking advantage of that soon (like they did with Google+ and Youtube).

Google has been the dominant search engine for a solid 12 years. They have a practical monopoly. They're under constant anti-trust scrutiny - of one form another - in all of their major markets. And you think they're going to start taking advantage (as in particularly egregious behavior) of their position soon? No need. It's generating $23 billion per year in operating income and growing. There are no serious challen…

They already take advantage of their in several different ways.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/ftc-says-google-skewed-search...

http://www.searchenginejournal.com/yelp-complains-outranked-...

http://marketingland.com/once-deemed-evil-google-now-embrace...

http://searchengineland.com/google-results-too-ad-heavy-1662...

http://wallstcheatsheet.com/stocks/ftc-googles-ad-practice-i...

http://www.benedelman.org/adlabeling/google-colors-oct2014.h...

Re: Wikipedia starts work on $2.5M internet search engine project to rival Google [pdf]

#56

I support it 100%. I love Google but they have too much power and I'm sure they'll start taking advantage of that soon (like they did with Google+ and Youtube).

I can't see it being much better I find Wikipedia impartiality lacking it's very US-centric.

For example something like the history of the Alaskan panhandle as seen from the US perspective is totally different when seen from a Canadian perspective.

I never use Wikipedia as a primary source of info even the linked sources I try to use as least three independent sources.

I would certainly like to see "Reliable and trustworthy information" but who do I trust who is reliable?

Re: Wikipedia starts work on $2.5M internet search engine project to rival Google [pdf]

#57
post #38

Summary of the approach (p10): "1) Public curation mechanisms for quality; 2) Transparency, telling users exactly how the information originated; 3) Open data access to metadata, giving users the exact date source of the information; 4) Protected user privacy, with their searching protected by strict privacy controls; 5) No advertising, which assures the free flow of information and a complete separation from commerc…

I'm pretty sure that the spammer argument is just an excuse used by Google to allow them to keep their business practices out of public scrutiny. Google search results are biased in favour of content produced by those who have money and power.

Google ranks everything based on popularity - Not based on quality. Popularity and quality are two independent concepts and not necessarily related. That's something which Wikimedia understands but which Google doesn't.

Re: Wikipedia starts work on $2.5M internet search engine project to rival Google [pdf]

#58
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only is it a search engine, but it is a grant application that has had WMF staff leaving in droves, and has greatly upset many, many others - who will quite likely also leave. It's very, very sad. And it's also a shameful moment for the WMF. edit: and don't just think it's me saying it. The WMF has had a mass exodus of staff in the last week or so. If you speak to any WMF non-executive staff members directly, you…

Care to explain? Do you have some links/sources?

Sure. I'll start off with the following email from Liam Wyatt:

https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2016-Febru...

The grant application you are looking at was only revealed due to a MASSIVE amount of controversy and pressure within the Wikimedia Foundation.

The community representative (James Heilman) on the board was let go the other day, in part because of concerns around this grant. You might want to look at the Wikipedia Signpost article he wrote about this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2...

Many people have questioned this. Lila, their Executive Director, seems to have conjured this up out of thin air, without consultation of any WMF staff members, or anyone in any of the various communities. Even highly influential, well respected people like Tim Starling appear to have been broadsided by this.

Here is what Lila Tretikov wrote about the search engine:

It was my mistake to not initiate this ideation on-wiki. Quite honestly, I really wish I could start this discussion over in a more collaborative way, knowing what I know today. Of course, that’s retrospecting with a firmer understanding of what the ideas are, and what is worthy of actually discussing. In the staff June Metrics meeting in 2015, the ideation was beginning to form in my mind from what I was learning through various conversations with staff. I had begun visualizing open knowledge existing in the shape of a universe. I saw the Wikimedia movement as the most motivated and sincere group of beings, united in their mission to build a rocket to explore Universal Free Knowledge. The words “search” and “discovery” and “knowledge” swam around in my mind with some rocket to navigate it. However, “rocket” didn’t seem to work, but in my mind, the rocket was really just an engine, or a portal, a TARDIS, that transports people on their journey through Universal Free Knowledge.

From the perspective I had in June, however, I was unprepared for the impact uttering the words “Knowledge Engine” would have. Can we all just take a moment and mercifully admit: it’s a catchy name. Perhaps not a great one or entirely appropriate in our context (hence we don’t use it any more). I was motivated. I didn’t yet know exactly what we needed to build, or how we would end up building it. I could’ve really used your insight and guidance to help shape the ideas, and model the improvements, and test and verify the impacts.

However, I was too afraid of engaging the community early on.

Why do you think that was?

I have a few thoughts, and would like to share them with you separately, as a wider topic. Either way, this was a mistake I have learned enormously from.

(this can be found here: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:LilaTretikov_(WMF)...)

That's a very, very real problem. An executive director of the Wikimedia Foundation should never have felt too afraid of engaging with the wider community on an issue as fundamental as this one.

It's even more concerning that a half-thought through idea didn't get discussed and yet a grant application was made. All those who say that the application is only for $250,000 are entirely missing the point - the entire project would be $2.5 million, this is just the first, initial stage.

It's even worse when Jimmy Wales states that:

"To make this very clear, no one in top positions has proposed or is proposing that WMF should get into the general "searching" or "try to be Google". [1]

Yet that is precisely what is being done here.

The WMF appear to have known about this, because they seem to have done a large number of hirings to be dedicated to search - which I hear through contacts was questioned at the time as it seemed an odd way to allocate WMF resources.

There have been, in the last week, I believe 5 or 6 influential staff leave the WMF. IN fact, they appear to be haemorrhaging staff currently, with no real sign of any abatement.

None of this is at all satisfying to me. I was very, very involved in Wikipedia years ago. I started their Admin Noticeboard, and I did lots of article work, and helped kick off some key things, one of which was the [citation needed] tag which I have to admit I have some mixed feelings about. But for such an important project, it saddens me greatly to say that as an outsider now, it looks like things are being badly mismanaged.

I hope for everyone's sake (and not just the folks at the WMF) that this can be resolved. It's not like governance issues can't be addressed - when Sue Gardener was in charge of the WMF, things not only ran like clock-work, but she ensured maximum transparency and we all trusted her implicitly because she earned that trust. I can't say the same for the current Executive team.

1. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/02/12/wikipedia_grant_buil...

Re: Wikipedia starts work on $2.5M internet search engine project to rival Google [pdf]

#59
post #47
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think facebook should be able to build a search engine. Don't know why they don't have one yet

Facebook wants a single platform to provide the Web through. If they built a search engine, it would only search Facebook.

Facebook search is broken, twitter search works much better.

Re: Wikipedia starts work on $2.5M internet search engine project to rival Google [pdf]

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only is it a search engine, but it is a grant application that has had WMF staff leaving in droves, and has greatly upset many, many others - who will quite likely also leave. It's very, very sad. And it's also a shameful moment for the WMF. edit: and don't just think it's me saying it. The WMF has had a mass exodus of staff in the last week or so. If you speak to any WMF non-executive staff members directly, you…

Can you say more/explain? What about the application is so upsetting? What is shameful about this? The Knight Foundation is about as upstanding as you can get, so it can't be that (full disclosure, I've received funding from them, so I'm definitely not unbiased on that point). So, what exactly is it that's so shameful here?

To be clear: my issue (and in fact, most peoples' issues) are not with the Knight Foundation. In fact, they appear to have been above board in every way in this whole debacle. It is the WMF board who are the problem here.

See my comment here for just a few comments on this issue:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11101262

Frankly, there's a lot more - to understand the issue better you might want to read Liam Wyatt's blog posts:

http://wittylama.com/2016/01/08/strategy-and-controversy/

and here:

http://wittylama.com/2016/01/30/strategy-controversy-part-2/

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