Zenefits Software Helped Brokers Cheat On Licensing Process • Hacker News Board

Re: Zenefits Software Helped Brokers Cheat On Licensing Process

#11

Post by zekevermillion » Thu, Feb 11, 2016, 10:55 PM UTC

jasode wrote: post #3

Another source[1] had more info about " The Macro ": Many of our California sales representatives received access to a software tool called a “Macro” that may have allowed them to complete mandatory online pre-licensing education courses offered by a third-party test preparation provider in less than the legally required 52 total hours. The Macro functioned to keep a person logged into the course and prevented the pe…

Love the passive voice "may have received access to" -- OK, who gave them access I wonder?

I would normally applaud the hacker mentality of using a computer to automate stupid or repetitive tasks, as long as any dishonesty is limited to a white lie. Like the obligatory security training video watching. But running a compliance company that doesn't comply seems more fundamentally problematic.

Re: Zenefits Software Helped Brokers Cheat On Licensing Process

#12

Post by calbear81 » Thu, Feb 11, 2016, 10:55 PM UTC

Implicated wrote: post #10

jefftchan wrote: post #7

https://www.ycombinator.com/ethics/ > Some examples of ethical behavior we expect from founders are: > ... > - Not using misleading, illegal or dishonest sales tactics. > ... Does this mean Parker is no longer a YC Founder, if the allegations turn out to be true?

I have a feeling it doesn't exactly work that way... How would someone be un-YC'd?

Meaning, ex-communicated from the YC network. Not be invited back to YC as a mentor, no demo day invites, etc.

Re: Zenefits Software Helped Brokers Cheat On Licensing Process

#13

Post by Analemma_ » Thu, Feb 11, 2016, 10:56 PM UTC

I guess this is a useful lesson to any would-be founders who want to make a business out of breaking the law: make sure you don't break laws higher than those on the municipal level. The difference between Uber and Zenefits/Theranos is that cities have limited resources and angry citizens can convince them to back down (and if you lose, hey, just ignore that city and try somewhere else), whereas state and Federal agencies can nuke you at any time and don't really have to worry about the vox populi.

Re: Zenefits Software Helped Brokers Cheat On Licensing Process

#14

Post by mortenjorck » Thu, Feb 11, 2016, 10:58 PM UTC

brown9-2 wrote: post #5

minimaxir wrote: post #4

The BuzzFeed Article on Sacks' memo was written/submitted first and is more comprehensive: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11083597

HN seems to have what amounts to a systematic ban on buzzfeed, even though their news org helped break this story (and many others).

Buzzfeed's curious chimaera of its trademark virally-targeted fluff content and a burgeoning hard news organization probably merits at least some kind of reconsideration of the penalty applied to submissions on HN.

It would be nice if Buzzfeed had something like a separate subdomain for its non-trivial content, but I'm not aware of any such thing that would enable automated differentiation.

Re: Zenefits Software Helped Brokers Cheat On Licensing Process

#15

Post by semi-extrinsic » Thu, Feb 11, 2016, 10:59 PM UTC

jasode wrote: post #3

Another source[1] had more info about " The Macro ": Many of our California sales representatives received access to a software tool called a “Macro” that may have allowed them to complete mandatory online pre-licensing education courses offered by a third-party test preparation provider in less than the legally required 52 total hours. The Macro functioned to keep a person logged into the course and prevented the pe…

There is a bit of fun to be poked at startups/the hacker mentality in this case, sure.

But what's appears to be a refreshing break from what happens when big corporations are caught red-handed, is that the leaders responsible have been fired/disciplined, while the employees on the floor have been told they will not be punished (though they will be if such things happen again).

At least that's what I understand from the email reproduced in the BuzzFeed article linked in another comment.

Re: Zenefits Software Helped Brokers Cheat On Licensing Process

#16

Post by tyre » Thu, Feb 11, 2016, 11:00 PM UTC

I used to work at Gusto (ZenPayroll back in my day) and dealing with Zenefits was always a pain for this reason.

They were the consummate hackers, using screen scraping and automation to do whatever the hell they wanted. One nightmare example was when a bug in their "automated" system rewrote bank account information for tons of employees to just be the last 4 digits of their account number. Such a mess.

Even if this weren't a tightly regulated industry, you're dealing with how people are paid and covered for health conditions.

We didn't hire hackers[1] because that attitude just doesn't fit for certain classes of problems.

Hats off to the investigative journalism by BuzzFeed, uncovering some frightening immaturity pervasive in Valley companies.

[1] I authored this post about our hiring at the time: https://gusto.com/blog/zenpayroll-is-not-hiring-hackers/

Re: Zenefits Software Helped Brokers Cheat On Licensing Process

#17

Post by calbear81 » Thu, Feb 11, 2016, 11:01 PM UTC

jasode wrote: post #3

Another source[1] had more info about " The Macro ": Many of our California sales representatives received access to a software tool called a “Macro” that may have allowed them to complete mandatory online pre-licensing education courses offered by a third-party test preparation provider in less than the legally required 52 total hours. The Macro functioned to keep a person logged into the course and prevented the pe…

The "hacker" and "hustler" mentality is also largely driven by expectations of growth when you take $500M in a Series C. When you have that much riding on a company you've built and you have been told to hustle, then you're going to do whatever it takes even if that means breaking the law.

Re: Zenefits Software Helped Brokers Cheat On Licensing Process

#18

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Feb 11, 2016, 11:02 PM UTC

tyre wrote: post #16

I used to work at Gusto (ZenPayroll back in my day) and dealing with Zenefits was always a pain for this reason. They were the consummate hackers, using screen scraping and automation to do whatever the hell they wanted. One nightmare example was when a bug in their "automated" system rewrote bank account information for tons of employees to just be the last 4 digits of their account number. Such a mess. Even if this…

[deleted]

Re: Zenefits Software Helped Brokers Cheat On Licensing Process

#19

Post by w1ntermute » Thu, Feb 11, 2016, 11:03 PM UTC

jasode wrote: post #3

Another source[1] had more info about " The Macro ": Many of our California sales representatives received access to a software tool called a “Macro” that may have allowed them to complete mandatory online pre-licensing education courses offered by a third-party test preparation provider in less than the legally required 52 total hours. The Macro functioned to keep a person logged into the course and prevented the pe…

Amusingly, YC's new publication is also called The Macro[0]. Perhaps there'll be an article in The Macro about "The Macro."

0: http://www.themacro.com/

Re: Zenefits Software Helped Brokers Cheat On Licensing Process

#20

Post by nostrademons » Thu, Feb 11, 2016, 11:05 PM UTC

Analemma_ wrote: post #13

I guess this is a useful lesson to any would-be founders who want to make a business out of breaking the law: make sure you don't break laws higher than those on the municipal level. The difference between Uber and Zenefits/Theranos is that cities have limited resources and angry citizens can convince them to back down (and if you lose, hey, just ignore that city and try somewhere else), whereas state and Federal age…

It reminds me a bit of the Ben Horowitz essay "Why I did not go to jail"

http://www.bhorowitz.com/why_i_did_not_go_to_jail

In general, laws are not something you want to fuck around with as a startup. You can break proprieties, you can do things that will piss certain people off (you're almost guaranteed to piss off your competitors if you're doing anything interesting, for example), and typical business ethics assumes that everybody is looking out for their own interests and can advocate for themselves. But when someone has explicitly said where the boundaries are - and particularly if that "someone" is a government - it's good to respect those.