Friction Between Programming Professionals and Beginners • Hacker News Board

Re: Friction Between Programming Professionals and Beginners

#161

Post by jrs235 » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 6:52 PM UTC

mettamage wrote: post #147

jrs235 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Beginners need to understand: why would I put more time into solving someone else's problems than the person asking me the question?" Is this because of how pervasive instant gratification [and entitlement] have become?

Why would you call it instant gratification if the question also applies to when the expert is a beginner in another field? Also, edge cases should be nuanced. For example, typing up an answer in 2 minutes since you know a lot about the problem area in general, while the question was one sentence. For me, it also shows motivation on the person asking the question (and vice versa). It's not effective to help someone w…

I should have been more clear. Because of the pervasiveness of instant gratification (and entitlement) in society today, does it seem like those asking questions, strike that, wanting answers just want the answer to their immediate "problem" without having to invest their own time in researching an answer and even minimally writing up what they have already tried/done to find an answer?

>For me, it also shows motivation on the person asking the question (and vice versa). It's not effective to help someone who isn't going to do anything with the information.

Amen! My in-laws keep talking about listing some items for sale on Craigslist. They usually ask me how much they think they could/should sell things for. I usually stand mute. The implication is that they want me to list the items for them. If they aren't motivated to minimally research or determine an asking price themselves I figure they aren't motivated enough to actually sell the thing. (Not to mention their motivation tends to be "what's the most I can get for this" while mine in the situation would be "what's the highest price I can ask and still ensure this thing is gone with in 2 weeks". Additionally, if I list the thing, I'll probably have to deal with the communications and exchanging the goods... no thanks.)

Re: Friction Between Programming Professionals and Beginners

#162

Post by doktrin » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 6:53 PM UTC

Xcelerate wrote: post #141

doktrin wrote: post #58

I guess I'm going to be the asshole today : If someone lets a few rough edges on SO dissuade them from learning, they probably didn't care for any of this to begin with. I mean, every single one of these traumatized "beginner" comments were sourced from reddit - where there are at least a half dozen subs that would gladly accommodate questions unsuitable for SO. On a related note, I also don't understand why there is…

> If someone lets a few rough edges on SO dissuade them from learning, they probably didn't care for any of this to begin with. Or perhaps people have different levels of emotional sensitivity (for environmental or genetic reasons). I detest conflict and go to extremes to avoid it; thus I try to stay away from situations that entail a lot of negative interpersonal interaction. If I was just now learning to program, a…

> If I was just now learning to program, an abrasive comment on SO would not turn me off to programming, but it would make me dislike certain types of people more, and in the future I would steer clear of that particular website.

This actually describes me fairly well. I began seriously pursuing programming as both a hobby and profession about 6 years ago. I was turned off by SO's somewhat prickly community, and to this day only use it as a search engine.

That's just it, though : SO is just SO. As valuable as it is, it's still only one resource among many. That was true then, and is even more true now. What your comment helped me internalize was that one of my principle objections with the OP is that the scope is overly broad. It's not so much about "beginners vs professionals" as it is about "Stack Overflow vs the uninitiated". It's perfectly legitimate to write about how to correctly ask questions on SO, but framing it as some sort of macro issue concerning the programming community at large feels wrong headed to me.

Re: Friction Between Programming Professionals and Beginners

#163

Post by khedoros » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 6:59 PM UTC

MaulingMonkey wrote: post #82

hellofunk wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. You can definitely be helped to learn how to do this. It is possible to show someone the technique of properly researching a difficult technical problem.

You can certainly show someone the technique. But it will not help if they don't ever attempt to put said technique to practice. For a given... "repeat customer", I will eventually resort to search links, "What did you try", and then eventually "RTFM", "Google It", etc. - and intentionally not answering the question, to force them to go through the motions - if they don't appear to be doing so.

I think that's where the need for balance comes in. Lead them to how to find the answer, and provide guidance on how to interpret it...but if they want to be spoon-fed, tell them to go somewhere else.

I start out by showing them how to describe their problem in a way that's easily understood by a more experienced programmer. Next would be to tell them some search terms likely to answer their question. If they're still stuck, ask which part is the most confusing and work through that a bit at a time.

Of course...this all can get very frustrating. After answering the same questions a dozen times, I often let someone else answer.

Re: Friction Between Programming Professionals and Beginners

#164

Post by plorkyeran » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 7:06 PM UTC

wdrw wrote: post #145

mettamage wrote: post #139

I am surprised that no one linked the What Have You Tried article by Matt Gemmell. http://mattgemmell.com/what-have-you-tried/ This is how I almost never got my SO topics closed. I state beforehand what I have tried, how certain SO questions may look related but are still not giving me enough knowledge to solve my problem. I do my best to make a convincing argument that I need help and can't make it on my own. A few…

StackOverflow serves a dual purpose: (1) to answer the immediate question of the original poster, and (2) to serve as a reference for anyone encountering the same problem in the future. I'd say that (2) is more important - good question/answer pairs on SO have helped hundreds or even thousands of developers beyond the original poster. Answering "what have you tried" may help with purpose (1), but is often just distra…

Actually, I've found the "what I've tried that didn't work" section to be useful quite often when I land on SO from a google search. Sometimes the questioner lists something that I didn't think of that does work for my specific problem, or it's what makes me realize that the answer given won't actually apply to my problem before I waste a bunch of time on it. Sometimes it's the only part that actually matches what I searched for, so I wouldn't have even found the question with a useful answer without it.

Re: Friction Between Programming Professionals and Beginners

#165

Post by mindcrime » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 7:18 PM UTC

padseeker wrote: post #151

32bitkid wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ever go to a gym and ask someone how to do a basic lift only to be scoffed at? Ever been to a foreign country and have someone berate you for not understanding how to navigate through some strange process or not knowing how to speak their language well enough? That's not asking, that's demanding that someone teach you. Its a brazen form of entitlement that completely disregards the state of the other person. In reg…

On one hand the going to the gym example is not a perfect analogy - the gym is a public place, and being accosted by some random person asking for help could be off-putting. Someone posting on stack overflow is not directed at anyone and is like a classified ad, it's not directed at you. You can easily ignore it as opposed to someone walking over to you explicitly asking for help. However 2 things - #1 the bile you h…

On one hand the going to the gym example is not a perfect analogy - the gym is a public place, and being accosted by some random person asking for help could be off-putting.

Except the culture of gyms, at least among most people to spend a lot of times at gyms and take fitness seriously, is to be helpful and charitable to others. Almost everybody I know who does any weight-lifting or anything related is always more than happy to help a n00b out if they have time.

Refusing to help someone if you're literally too busy is one thing. But a blanket attitude of "I'm not here to help you, ever, under any circumstances" is a pretty dick'ish position by the standards of many gym regulars. Of course it's your right to refuse anybody you want...

Re: Friction Between Programming Professionals and Beginners

#166

Post by Lawtonfogle » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 7:24 PM UTC

marknutter wrote: post #125

Lawtonfogle wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Ever go to a gym and ask someone how to do a basic lift only to be scoffed at? Ever been to a foreign country and have someone berate you for not understanding how to navigate through some strange process or not knowing how to speak their language well enough? Ever asked a stranger out and been shot down harshly? Part of the reason some people learn to respond this way is because there are so many people bothering t…

The problem is, person #6214 doesn't know they're person #6214. If you're making yourself available for questions then you don't get to bitch about the questions you receive. It'd be like a person working an information booth getting angry at someone asking where the bathroom is.

Often they don't. It is one of those situations which doesn't seem to have a great answer. Being equally nice to everyone does come at a cost that you shouldn't be forced to pay, but the people annoying you often have no intention to do so.

Re: Friction Between Programming Professionals and Beginners

#167

Post by padseeker » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 7:29 PM UTC

mindcrime wrote: post #165

padseeker wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On one hand the going to the gym example is not a perfect analogy - the gym is a public place, and being accosted by some random person asking for help could be off-putting. Someone posting on stack overflow is not directed at anyone and is like a classified ad, it's not directed at you. You can easily ignore it as opposed to someone walking over to you explicitly asking for help. However 2 things - #1 the bile you h…

On one hand the going to the gym example is not a perfect analogy - the gym is a public place, and being accosted by some random person asking for help could be off-putting. Except the culture of gyms, at least among most people to spend a lot of times at gyms and take fitness seriously, is to be helpful and charitable to others. Almost everybody I know who does any weight-lifting or anything related is always more t…

I do go to the gym, but I'm no expert. I was not aware of this. Thank you for posting this.

I guess what I was trying to say is if you were in the middle of a set and someone asked you for help I would be more understanding to the person being asked if they were annoyed about being bothered.

On the other hand you have to go out of your way to be an asshole on stack overflow, and yet it happens all the time. No one is demanding your attention or interrupting your code time to respond to a post on SO, and yet so many know it alls cannot help themselves by taking a swipe at the person posting a question. I just hate that attitude.

Maybe I should spend more time reading questions on SO and posting helpful responses.

Re: Friction Between Programming Professionals and Beginners

#168

Post by mindcrime » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 7:32 PM UTC

padseeker wrote: post #167

mindcrime wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On one hand the going to the gym example is not a perfect analogy - the gym is a public place, and being accosted by some random person asking for help could be off-putting. Except the culture of gyms, at least among most people to spend a lot of times at gyms and take fitness seriously, is to be helpful and charitable to others. Almost everybody I know who does any weight-lifting or anything related is always more t…

I do go to the gym, but I'm no expert. I was not aware of this. Thank you for posting this. I guess what I was trying to say is if you were in the middle of a set and someone asked you for help I would be more understanding to the person being asked if they were annoyed about being bothered. On the other hand you have to go out of your way to be an asshole on stack overflow, and yet it happens all the time. No one is…

I guess what I was trying to say is if you were in the middle of a set and someone asked you for help I would be more understanding to the person being asked if they were annoyed about being bothered.

Fair enough. There is an etiquette to things at the gym as well, and it may take a while to pick up on some of that stuff. Which is, I guess, the same as the Internet in some ways.

Re: Friction Between Programming Professionals and Beginners

#169

Post by SilasX » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 7:37 PM UTC

32bitkid wrote: post #99

marknutter wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, just no. There is no point to any of all this search technology and this accumulated knowledge if no one uses it. And here we have a prime example of why beginners find the programming community to be so abrasive, and worse, it's sitting at the top of this comment thread. Ask yourself, would this be the answer you give to a 12 year old girl who's taken an early interest in programming? Or a single mother who's…

> Ever go to a gym and ask someone how to do a basic lift only to be scoffed at? Ever been to a foreign country and have someone berate you for not understanding how to navigate through some strange process or not knowing how to speak their language well enough? That's not asking, that's demanding that someone teach you. Its a brazen form of entitlement that completely disregards the state of the other person. In reg…

Per padseeker's sibling comment, asking random strangers for help at a gym is not an analogy because there's no social expectation that you'll be asked for help or that you'll provide such help just by going to the gym, whereas forums are places where you're expected to ask for help.

The relevant comparison would be to the gym's front desk. So, extending the metaphor:

1) Yes, it would be offputting if you asked them about lifts there and they just scoffed.

2) Yes, I have asked for help like this before ("where's the first aid kit, I'm bleeding?") and had that treatment, and it sucked.

3) But being pointed to the appropriate resource is a very reasonable response, and it's analogous to (a precise variant of) RTFM. It would be like:

"How do I lift?" -> "Oh, ask one of the people in red shirts."

"What are the rules?" -> "Oh, it's on that sign over there."

Not much different from:

"How do I make a website?" -> "start from this link"

"How do I make my DB queries faster?" -> "search for database index"

Re: Friction Between Programming Professionals and Beginners

#170

Post by 32bitkid » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 7:48 PM UTC

padseeker wrote: post #151

32bitkid wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ever go to a gym and ask someone how to do a basic lift only to be scoffed at? Ever been to a foreign country and have someone berate you for not understanding how to navigate through some strange process or not knowing how to speak their language well enough? That's not asking, that's demanding that someone teach you. Its a brazen form of entitlement that completely disregards the state of the other person. In reg…

On one hand the going to the gym example is not a perfect analogy - the gym is a public place, and being accosted by some random person asking for help could be off-putting. Someone posting on stack overflow is not directed at anyone and is like a classified ad, it's not directed at you. You can easily ignore it as opposed to someone walking over to you explicitly asking for help. However 2 things - #1 the bile you h…

After years of teaching and mentoring, I love helping those "asking for help". See my stackoverflow profile if you want. However, also after years of teaching, I am very abrasive to those "demanding assistance". I find that subtly is often drained out of conversations regarding the responsibility of the teacher and the consideration of the learner.

"Can you help me understand why this doesnt work?"

...is very different from...

"It looks like you know what you are doing, fix this for me."

..even though the outcomes are often very similar.