Marc Andreessen Pro-Colonialism Tweet Riles India Tech World • Hacker News Board

Re: Marc Andreessen Pro-Colonialism Tweet Riles India Tech World

#161

Post by intended » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 4:48 PM UTC

JetSetWilly wrote: post #159

So if India hadn't been colonised it would have industrialised in the 1840s, remained competitive in world trade, and never have had any internal political troubles and never ever jail opponents of the mughal empire? Somehow I doubt that.

Yes?

The geographic borders would be different, that's about it.

Let's not forget that British trade policy was designed to extract raw material cheap from India, and then dump finished goods at low rates, and remove indigenous industries.

The sub continent is like Europe. If allowed to be on its own, people would have modernized and gotten on with the business of making money.

So why is that hard to imagine?

Re: Marc Andreessen Pro-Colonialism Tweet Riles India Tech World

#162

Post by cookiecaper » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 5:01 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #146

cookiecaper wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think "don't show them my stuff" is a legitimate option for a publication and broadcast platform like Twitter. It's so simple to evade the blocks that all it does is promote sockpuppetry, which just complicates attempts to control all that "harassment" (which, more often, is actually just simple disagreement) that Twitter users are concerned about. If you don't want your tweets to be publicly visible, set you…

The point isn't to put some ironclad barrier between you, it's just to make it harder for them. That's enough to get a lot of people to just give up and move on. If people want to do it, why not let them? Social stuff doesn't have to be all or nothing and it doesn't have to be perfect. The lock on my front door won't keep out a determined intruder, but it's still extremely useful.

A locked front door provides basic protection for a private domicile. Twitter is not private. A more apropos analogy to Twitter's block functionality would be holding a meeting in the park and yelling at certain people to stop listening because you don't like them being around. You can yell all you want but you can't actually stop them from hearing you or listening if they're interested, and it's unreasonable to expect to be able to do so.

Re: Marc Andreessen Pro-Colonialism Tweet Riles India Tech World

#163

Post by intended » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 5:02 PM UTC

Brakenshire wrote: post #142

nileshtrivedi wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it a coincidence that industrial revolution happened in a country which was taking raw material from its colonies at zero cost? Owning India is what allowed Britain to fund its own development (as well as all its international wars). The british destroyed india's local textile sector (which was world-famous), shipped all the cotton to Britain, and sold clothes BACK to Indians. That's how this industrial revolution…

I would agree it's almost certainly true that colonialism and extracted wealth did a great deal to fuel the industrial revolution, but saying that the British pace of industrialization was dependent on India is a different thing from saying that India would have industrialized at the same pace as the West in the absence of colonialism. Leaders and elites frittering away wealth, rather than investing it in economic de…

To be fair, the % of GDP argument is really hard to quantify along the axes being used here.

If India wasn't a colony, wealth would not have concentrated in GB, likely slowing Down their development and Maybe even making them more open to local conflicts.

Provided the French or Dutch didn't conquer more of India, and, it's hard to argue that wealth remaining in India would have not have resulted in more trade and local development.

We can definitely say that having someone come to your country, and clearly stop you from building the best product you can build, sell or pruchase, impoverishes your country.

Re: Marc Andreessen Pro-Colonialism Tweet Riles India Tech World

#164

Post by mikeash » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 5:25 PM UTC

cookiecaper wrote: post #162

mikeash wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point isn't to put some ironclad barrier between you, it's just to make it harder for them. That's enough to get a lot of people to just give up and move on. If people want to do it, why not let them? Social stuff doesn't have to be all or nothing and it doesn't have to be perfect. The lock on my front door won't keep out a determined intruder, but it's still extremely useful.

A locked front door provides basic protection for a private domicile. Twitter is not private. A more apropos analogy to Twitter's block functionality would be holding a meeting in the park and yelling at certain people to stop listening because you don't like them being around. You can yell all you want but you can't actually stop them from hearing you or listening if they're interested, and it's unreasonable to expe…

Regardless, the fact remains that some users find this functionality useful. You can tell them it's useless as much as you want, but they want it, and Twitter provides it, so there's no particular reason to take it away.

Re: Marc Andreessen Pro-Colonialism Tweet Riles India Tech World

#165

Post by JetSetWilly » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 5:26 PM UTC

intended wrote: post #161

JetSetWilly wrote: post #159

So if India hadn't been colonised it would have industrialised in the 1840s, remained competitive in world trade, and never have had any internal political troubles and never ever jail opponents of the mughal empire? Somehow I doubt that.

Yes? The geographic borders would be different, that's about it. Let's not forget that British trade policy was designed to extract raw material cheap from India, and then dump finished goods at low rates, and remove indigenous industries. The sub continent is like Europe. If allowed to be on its own, people would have modernized and gotten on with the business of making money. So why is that hard to imagine?

It is hard to imagine because the industrial revolution required a huge number of pre-requisites most of which don't seem to be present in the India of the 18th century, but which were present in Britain.

In fact it is the very absence of these pre-requisites that meant Britain was in a position where it was even able to colonise India.

To blithely state that if Britain hadn't colonised India that India would have inevitably maintained its share of world GDP and trade, in the face of the huge revolutions in industry, commerce and thought taking place in Europe, stretches all credibility.

In fact if Britain hadn't colonised India, some other European nation would have instead. If India had industrialised first, then I'm quite sure the Mughal empire would have stretched to continental Europe in time.

Re: Marc Andreessen Pro-Colonialism Tweet Riles India Tech World

#166

Post by Riod » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 5:54 PM UTC

factorialboy wrote: post #4

Extremely stupid tweet by Andreessen. He probably doesn't even realize that, like most ignorant people. FYI it was socialism that held back the Indian economy during the 70s and 80s. And it was colonialism that drained the country's wealth for over two hundred years. Here, Mr. Andreessen, educate yourself: https://www.google.com/search?q=bengal+famine

Honestly I think this reflects a fairly common sentiment amongst westerners. Not the first time I've heard this; doubt it would be the last. I've even heard white south africans in the west say that south africa would have been better off under apartheid, to be greeted by a chorus of nodding heads. Scary people actually think subjugation is a good thing.

Re: Marc Andreessen Pro-Colonialism Tweet Riles India Tech World

#167

Post by metaphorm » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 5:58 PM UTC

jccc wrote: post #40

k-mcgrady wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although I think you may be right in your interpretation how is maintaining net neutrality by India 'anti-colonialist'?

I have no position on this. Please disagree with Andreessen about that, not with my objection to wild misinterpretation of him. I have zero qualifications to have an opinion on the question you raise.

people often claim that they "misspoke" or "my words are being misinterpreted" as a way of attempting to save face when they actually said what they meant.

Re: Marc Andreessen Pro-Colonialism Tweet Riles India Tech World

#168

Post by Riod » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 5:59 PM UTC

JetSetWilly wrote: post #165

intended wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes? The geographic borders would be different, that's about it. Let's not forget that British trade policy was designed to extract raw material cheap from India, and then dump finished goods at low rates, and remove indigenous industries. The sub continent is like Europe. If allowed to be on its own, people would have modernized and gotten on with the business of making money. So why is that hard to imagine?

It is hard to imagine because the industrial revolution required a huge number of pre-requisites most of which don't seem to be present in the India of the 18th century, but which were present in Britain. In fact it is the very absence of these pre-requisites that meant Britain was in a position where it was even able to colonise India. To blithely state that if Britain hadn't colonised India that India would have in…

Britain first used their military power to seize India. They then blocked the Indians from manufacturing a vast variety of manufactured goods and forced farmers to produce certain cash crops (like cotton), to be sold only to the British at fixed prices. They then imported those raw materials to their home country and then exported finished goods to India. They basically captured themselves a monopoly which kickstarted the industrial revolution. It's telling that it was Britain and not Germany where the revolution happened. A bit of reading would tell you this..

Re: Marc Andreessen Pro-Colonialism Tweet Riles India Tech World

#169

Post by metaphorm » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 6:00 PM UTC

cynicalkane wrote: post #33

jccc wrote: post #14

I don't particularly like the guy, but is there a campaign of deliberate misinterpretation going on? Yes, probably a really stupid thing to say, and perhaps wrong for many reasons. No, he did not say India should have kept Britain as its colonial power, or any of the other incredible interpretations now flying around the Twittersphere. Jonny Axelsson: Anti-semitism not the opposite of semitism. Now whether anti-colon…

This exactly. What's going on here is the internet hate machine has found a new target, and is eager to assign the least generous possible interpretation so they can feel good about themselves, look nice and self-righteous to their friends, get up votes, and so on. If you want to attack a man, maybe it's best to figure out what he was trying to say first. Some of the comments even in this thread are disgusting, and t…

why are you so eager to leap to Marc Andreesen's defense? surely the man can speak for himself.

Re: Marc Andreessen Pro-Colonialism Tweet Riles India Tech World

#170

Post by navinsylvester » Wed, Feb 10, 2016, 6:01 PM UTC

How has this slipped from front page so soon when the topic is still hot. Please forgive my ignorance. What is the logic behind it?. I have faith we are not elitist.