Live data from Hacker News

Friction Between Programming Professionals and Beginners

programmingforbeginnersbook.com

71–80 of 187 posts

Re: Friction Between Programming Professionals and Beginners

#71
post #58

I guess I'm going to be the asshole today : If someone lets a few rough edges on SO dissuade them from learning, they probably didn't care for any of this to begin with. I mean, every single one of these traumatized "beginner" comments were sourced from reddit - where there are at least a half dozen subs that would gladly accommodate questions unsuitable for SO. On a related note, I also don't understand why there is…

"I also don't understand why there is a constant push to coddle beginners to increasingly absurd degrees."

Apply this perspective beyond software development. Law, medicine, firemen, teaching a kid to play baseball. Why do we continually look at software development different than other acquired skills?

To answer your question directly, it is my opinion that the layers of abstraction that we have today, and that continue to grow, put those new to software and computer science at a huge disadvantage. They have a very long haul. And yet, demand increases for these skills. Yes, we should coddle to the best of our ability.

Re: Friction Between Programming Professionals and Beginners

#73
post #8

> Attempt to answer the question, or don’t comment at all. Don’t tell them to RTFM, Google it, No, just no. There is no point to any of all this search technology and this accumulated knowledge if no one uses it. Someone asking a question that is answered in the documentation or has been asked and answered over and over should be pointed at those sources. One of the most important skills anyone is going to learn in a…

> Attempt to answer the question, or don’t comment at all. Don’t tell them to RTFM, Google it,

I think the point is that if you're going to tell them to RTFM or google it. you should also attempt to answer it or point them in the right direction. but don't tell them RTFM or Google it and nothing else. That doesn't help. A lot of time people have already tried that and don't know enough to know where to look or what to search. At least tell them to try googling XYZ or tell them check section whatever in the docs.

Re: Friction Between Programming Professionals and Beginners

#74
post #4

I feel StackOverflow is a bad place even as a professional. I don't agree with 90% of "closing" of questions, frequently closing a question is the ultimate upvote. StackOverflow seems to prefer questions that can be answered by just copying the fine manual - and frowns on those that might involve discussion. From time to time I still use it, but for me it has jumped the shark.

I asked a question on a Stack Exchange site (not SO) that was immediately reported as a duplicate. It wasn't , the duplicate wasn't even close in multiple ways, and someone else jumped in to defend the question - he was then upvoted by several people. Despite this, there is a permanent prompt to either accept that the question is a duplicate, or to edit my question and explain why it isn't. This is nonsensical, becau…

I work for Stack Overflow: it might help to know that the prompt isn't permanent; it will go away in between 4-14 days (as the votes or flags that triggered it age away).

We added that prompt because a huge number of people were asking questions that were either duplicates or were so poorly presented that the nugget of information that made them unique was obscured; either way, the asker wasn't getting an answer. It's been live for just under a year now, and the response has been incredible: more duplicate questions are confirmed by the askers themselves than are closed by voters; meanwhile, the number of people editing their questions has also gone up.

Sorry you had a bad experience with it, but this is part of the work we've been doing to reduce the amount of conflict and frustration on the part of both askers and answerers.

Re: Friction Between Programming Professionals and Beginners

#75
The absolute worst experience is when the top link on Google is on a Closed/Duplicate/Invalid Stack Overflow, where the answers and comments are all on how the question is bad- especially when the question is almost verbatim to the search.

The problem with SO is that there isn't an alternative with a user base large enough to get that critical mass of answers. That means that there are no real alternatives to the very well defined limitations of Stack Overflow.

Without an alternative, it puts contributors in an adversarial position against askers- trying to close as many questions as possible to try and keep the mission statement alive.

Re: Friction Between Programming Professionals and Beginners

#76
post #36
post #3

I can definitely recall how alienating the stack overflow community was to me when I first started learning programming. You ask a simple question and they yell at you to Google it. You ask a complex question and they ask you why you're doing it. My solution was just to close myself off from StackOverflow and try any other community. My experience with IRC hasn't been great, but often my responses were miles better t…

> You ask a complex question and they ask you why you're doing it. As someone on the other side of those questions, perhaps I can explain. Very often, people unfamiliar with a subject area ask questions about solutions, instead of asking about problems. They've done a bit of googling, and have a partial solution. But the solution doesn't work, so they ask "how can I fix this solution." To someone familiar with the pr…

Those "what are you really trying to do?" responses are infuriating. I feel like responding "What I'm really trying to do is just get an answer to this specific question. I don't need you to re-design my architecture."

Re: Friction Between Programming Professionals and Beginners

#77
post #36
post #3

I can definitely recall how alienating the stack overflow community was to me when I first started learning programming. You ask a simple question and they yell at you to Google it. You ask a complex question and they ask you why you're doing it. My solution was just to close myself off from StackOverflow and try any other community. My experience with IRC hasn't been great, but often my responses were miles better t…

> You ask a complex question and they ask you why you're doing it. As someone on the other side of those questions, perhaps I can explain. Very often, people unfamiliar with a subject area ask questions about solutions, instead of asking about problems. They've done a bit of googling, and have a partial solution. But the solution doesn't work, so they ask "how can I fix this solution." To someone familiar with the pr…

I understand where you're coming from, but it's often the way questions are answered that's the problem, as shown in your example.

If someone's asking to put diesel in their petrol car, they obviously don't know that's a bad thing to do. Just asking 'Why are you trying to do that' makes you seem like you're trying to be difficult. A better answer would be 'I think you're looking at the problem wrong - diesel won't work in your petrol car, what are you trying to achieve by putting diesel in your petrol car?'

Yes it's a bit longer, but it actually helps someone know they are wrong, rather than coming across like 'Pff you idiot, you want to do it my way'.

Re: Friction Between Programming Professionals and Beginners

#78
post #58

I guess I'm going to be the asshole today : If someone lets a few rough edges on SO dissuade them from learning, they probably didn't care for any of this to begin with. I mean, every single one of these traumatized "beginner" comments were sourced from reddit - where there are at least a half dozen subs that would gladly accommodate questions unsuitable for SO. On a related note, I also don't understand why there is…

"I also don't understand why there is a constant push to coddle beginners to increasingly absurd degrees." Apply this perspective beyond software development. Law, medicine, firemen, teaching a kid to play baseball. Why do we continually look at software development different than other acquired skills? To answer your question directly, it is my opinion that the layers of abstraction that we have today, and that cont…

> Apply this perspective beyond software development. Law, medicine, firemen, teaching a kid to play baseball. Why do we continually look at software development different than other acquired skills?

Well, that's a good question. What do you think it takes to break into law, medicine or fire safety? I can assure you that being willing to put in significant work, and tolerating adversity, is a hard requirement for each of them.

Much of my family is in medicine, and I used to work in law - both professions are absolutely merciless in comparison to engineering. The expectation that would-be [doctors, lawyers, bankers, etc] put in the work is unwavering, and the professionals in those fields can be huge dickheads to boot. Yet, they somehow manage to attract more than their share of candidates.

Re: Friction Between Programming Professionals and Beginners

#79
post #8

> Attempt to answer the question, or don’t comment at all. Don’t tell them to RTFM, Google it, No, just no. There is no point to any of all this search technology and this accumulated knowledge if no one uses it. Someone asking a question that is answered in the documentation or has been asked and answered over and over should be pointed at those sources. One of the most important skills anyone is going to learn in a…

> No, just no. There is no point to any of all this search technology and this accumulated knowledge if no one uses it.

And here we have a prime example of why beginners find the programming community to be so abrasive, and worse, it's sitting at the top of this comment thread.

Ask yourself, would this be the answer you give to a 12 year old girl who's taken an early interest in programming? Or a single mother who's trying to switch careers to improve her lot in life? Or your own mother, for that matter? Is it really constructive to be so abrasive?

I'm starting to understand why we have such a problem with diversity in our field. This type of response is, in no uncertain terms, the response of a bully.

Pause for a moment. Try to remember what it was like when you were first starting out with programming. When "the fucking manual" was actually really confusing and loaded with domain specific terms, acronyms, and syntax. Can't remember a time when you didn't learn something immediately? Fine, step outside your world of programming and try to recall any painful memories you might have about trying to learn something outside your area of expertise.

Ever go to a gym and ask someone how to do a basic lift only to be scoffed at? Ever been to a foreign country and have someone berate you for not understanding how to navigate through some strange process or not knowing how to speak their language well enough? Perhaps you have, and it hurt, but you brushed it off and continued on. That's great for you, but not everybody is like that. A lot of people get discouraged and never continue with that sport, or with traveling, or with programming, and it's tragic because they might have otherwise excelled at those endeavors.

Re: Friction Between Programming Professionals and Beginners

#80
post #8

> Attempt to answer the question, or don’t comment at all. Don’t tell them to RTFM, Google it, No, just no. There is no point to any of all this search technology and this accumulated knowledge if no one uses it. Someone asking a question that is answered in the documentation or has been asked and answered over and over should be pointed at those sources. One of the most important skills anyone is going to learn in a…

You can see that there's a difference between saying "Google it" and saying "You're saying 'foo', but you probably want to Google 'bar'"?

Or that there's a difference between saying "RTFM" versus "This is in the manual in the section 'FooBar' - what are you doing that isn't covered there?"

Because too many SO comments are simple RTFM responses.

Post reply on HN