Live data from Hacker News

Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

bbc.com

131–140 of 411 posts

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USA charges people it evacuates from war zones, and may or may not do so at all. It is not obligated to do so. Additionally, if she has dual citizenship, she would get it for free from the UK anyway even if she lives in Spain. People with British passports also have 90-day visa free access under the Visa waiver program. Unless she intends to move there, there aren't really any benefits to being a US citizen, and…

If she's come to the conclusion that she doesn't need any of the services that she gets as a citizen, for the reasons you've given, then why is she still a citizen? Either it's worth it (including any emotional attachment) when you balance it against the cost or it isn't. But if she chooses to retain her citizenship then she's incurring a potential cost to the US, which surely it's reasonable for her to contribute to…

What costs? If she doesn't live there she imposes no costs on the USA. If she ever returned and started imposing costs, she'd also start paying taxes.

Why is she still a citizen? The article says she's in the process of renouncing. Not done already probably because:

• She might one day need to spend time with family or elderly relatives, even if she'd prefer to stay abroad.

• The USA does not allow you to give up your citizenship for tax reasons. She's probably screwed herself here by talking to the BBC, so I suspect she doesn't know that (edit: wrong, I missed the part in the article where it says Jane is a pseudonym). If they think you relinquished your citizenship to avoid taxes they can simply levy taxes on you anyway.

• Giving up citizenship is itself an expensive process and can trigger an "exit tax" that assumes you liquidated every asset you own on the day of renouncement, including things like a home. This exit tax can itself make giving up US citizenship financially infeasible.

• It costs $2350 and can take months.

In short, the entire US FATCA system is designed to screw over expats as hard as possible. It's very hard to get out and isn't at all justifiable under any moral or ethical code I'm aware of. The only reason the US can enforce it at all is the primacy of New York in the financial system and the incredibly aggressive Congress.

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#132
post #101

I am an American living in Prague and will be among those to give up their citizenship. The new FBAR requirements and the recently pushed through changes that require foreign banks to report are really a huge burden. It is a significant legal risk to be an American overseas. The fines are insane for failiure to report, even if you owe no taxes! You can easilly land yourself with a $20 000 - $80 000 fine for having a…

Have you come across anyone who has been fined under this law? I have not and know many people who are rubbish at filing on time or even in the same year. I've not seen any enforcement commensurate with $20k fines willy nilly. Not that I like the law, I've just not seen it enforced.

Non-enforcement of draconian laws is the problem. Especially if actually following those laws is difficult to impossible.

It means that your fate is not decided by the law, but by arbitrary decisions of random officials. It is the opposite of rule of law.

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#133

For most tax forms, the IRS says "you have to fill out this form so as to pay the correct taxes." For FATCA, the IRS says "FATCA targets tax non-compliance by U.S. taxpayers with foreign accounts." https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Corporations/Foreign-Account-... In other words, FATCA treats all Americans overseas as a priori criminals -- the form is being filled out to "target non-compliance."

This is exactly how the IRS treats all non-resident US tax payers. My ex, a joint Canadian/US citizen, had a problem with her taxes one year. The CRA (Canadian Revenue Agency) sent a letter that basically said "You appear to have made a mistake on your taxes, we think you owe an extra $XXXX. Check with your accountant, sorry for the bother if this isn't correct." the letter from the IRS basically said "You have defrauded the US Government of $YYYY. You will be arrested if you return to the US. You will be extradited if your country of residence supports extradition for Fraud. Fraud of this amount can result in "

Her accountant cleared it up in a few days, apparently someone at the IRS had made a mistake about Canadian Tax Law and reported the problem to the CRA which didn't verify it. It was a scary couple of weeks until we got the letter from the IRS which said the taxes were fine but included a warning about not letting this happen again.

I'd have renounced just for that bullshit.

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're a permanent resident until you formally renounce permanent residency at a US embassy or consulate. Some may permit mailing in your green card, others require you to appear in person. However, the process is or was free when I went through it. I think there are other ways of losing permanent residence, but the only guaranteed ways are when you renounce or when the US takes it from you. Either way, you better ha…

What sanctions are available to the USA in case of non-compliance if you do not ever return to the USA? Personally I find all this 'citizen as property of the state' stuff to be rather revolting, and in direct contradiction of such sentence fragments as 'the land of the free'.

I don't know what they can do to get you or to make your life miserable, maybe nothing.

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are some benefits to being a US citizen, like that the army will rescue you if there is a civil war This is a common myth. If you don't intend to return to the USA there are no benefits to US citizenship, only downsides. The US may or may not rescue you if there's a civil war (see the fate of people in Yemen), but if they do, they will charge you for it at military rates you almost certainly cannot afford: ht…

My dad was evacuated from Yemen by the military when the civil war there broke out. That blue passport was his ticket out of a country that was rapidly disintegrating. He was not charged anything for that. So they don't always charge you (indeed I've never heard of it).

http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-yemen-us-citiz...

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/16061379-post8.html

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#136

I am an American living in Prague and will be among those to give up their citizenship. The new FBAR requirements and the recently pushed through changes that require foreign banks to report are really a huge burden. It is a significant legal risk to be an American overseas. The fines are insane for failiure to report, even if you owe no taxes! You can easilly land yourself with a $20 000 - $80 000 fine for having a…

"the recently pushed through changes that require foreign banks to report are really a huge burden"

The OECD is adopting CRS which is a wider-reaching version of FACTA. 51 countries are adopting it in September 2017. Another 34 (including Hong Kong, Switzerland, Singapore, and the United Arab Emirates) will adopt it a year later, in 2018.

I have (some) hope that what we're seeing now is the teething pains and they'll go away in a few years. But (as a fellow expat) I agree it is not a great time right now :(

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#137

This affects my girlfriend. She has a dual passport but only lived in the US to the age of six months. We are are British but live in Spain which already makes for complex tax arrangements, and this on top of things is just crazy. How the hell does the US think it has the right to tax people who haven't lived there for over 30 years?

Does your girlfriend have access to services as a US citizen? Such as embassies, entrance to the US without a visa, or evacuation in case of war? Who should pay for those services if your girlfriend doesn't want to?

Maybe thousands of people who are paying tax in the US but aren't citizens? Pretty much every country has embassies and do not tax people when living abroad.

The embassies is also for people just traveling/visiting and not living permanently abroad.

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#138

I am an American living in Prague and will be among those to give up their citizenship. The new FBAR requirements and the recently pushed through changes that require foreign banks to report are really a huge burden. It is a significant legal risk to be an American overseas. The fines are insane for failiure to report, even if you owe no taxes! You can easilly land yourself with a $20 000 - $80 000 fine for having a…

Army coming to rescue? Nope. Here's a story about the US specifically NOT going to rescue Americans in Yemen:

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-04-22/americans-t...

Have a look at this evacuation application:

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/211837.pdf

Here's the key wording:

"3. I understand that: (a) I will be billed for the cost of my/our transportation no greater than the amount of a full-fare economy flight, or comparable alternate transportation, to the designated destination(s) that would have been charged immediately prior to the events giving rise to the evacuation. (b) My obligation to repay my loan will not be considered paid in full until it clears through the account of the Treasurer of the United States. (c) Until I have paid my loan in full, I and all listed U.S. citizen family members will only be eligible for a limited validity U.S. passport. (d) If my loan is in default, I and all listed U.S. citizen family members will not be eligible for a limited validity U.S. passports. (e) My loan will be subject to interest, penalties, and other charges for late payment as directed by law and regulation. (f) I will be liable to pay any costs for collection."

If you're interested in reading the State Department Budget:

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/100033.pdf

You'll notice that US Citizens Services is self-funded from fees collected from Americans using their services. I'm not saying that's wrong or right, but by comparison, the Social Security Administration doesn't charge fees for services.

The US is the ONLY country besides Eritrea that taxes non-resident Americans. Interestingly, Eritrea's tax warrants "investigation" by Swiss authorities: http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/controversial-levy_swiss-prosecu...

And from the British: http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2015/jun/09/er...

Yet, the US does the exact same thing.

Here's an economist article discussing the situation in more detail: http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21605907-americas-new-...

In the Facebook group Citizenship Taxation, FATCA and Citizenship Based taxation are the key topics. There are countless stories of double taxation (despite normalization agreements, as those agreements don't cover certain taxes like French Social Charges.)

My primary complaint about Citizenship Based Taxation is that Americans abroad have no representation. You register to vote in your "state of residence" -- so while you can just pick a state at random if you want, the fact is that we do not have representation because the representatives from a state represent residents of that state. It is illegal to register to vote in a state in which you aren't resident. To register to vote as an overseas American, you effectively have to commit fraud.

There's also the related issue of "Accidental Americans" -- these are Americans who became Americans by virtue of birth to American parents even if they have never set foot in the US. Many of them don't even realize that they are Americans -- however, they have FULL tax liability to the United States on all their income for their entire life. When they open overseas bank accounts, banks often discover they are a "US Person" and thus their accounts are subject to either not being opened or subject to seizure by the US treasury department for failing to report the account per FATCA. Violations start at $10,000 per incident. Here's an article about those penalties: http://money.cnn.com/2015/04/01/pf/taxes/irs-penalties/

My opposition to Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders is based exclusively on their support for FATCA (Bernie voted for it) and Citizenship Based Taxation. Clinton was the one who introduced the $450 citizenship renunciation fee (now raised to $2300.) Democrats Abroad is on record opposing Rand Paul's repeated bills to repeal FATCA. They also oppose the lawsuit challenging both FATCA and the constitutionality of citizenship based taxation.

I know this was a long rant, but this issue is one I face continually and it has harmed a large number of people for minimal benefit.

The myth that American citizenship has "value" to an overseas American is just that.. a myth.

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#139

I am an American living in Prague and will be among those to give up their citizenship. The new FBAR requirements and the recently pushed through changes that require foreign banks to report are really a huge burden. It is a significant legal risk to be an American overseas. The fines are insane for failiure to report, even if you owe no taxes! You can easilly land yourself with a $20 000 - $80 000 fine for having a…

I'm an American living in Europe. I report my income to the IRS every year, like you. Reading your comment gave me a scare -- what exactly would trigger the $20,000-80,000 fine or asset seizure? Is it a failure to report income taxes at all? Or do you make so much more than $100k/year that the double taxation is killing you? I'm just trying to figure out what, other than their already-reported income being audited, h…

It's not the tax failure -- it's the failure to report bank accounts to the US Treasury. Here's an article about it: http://money.cnn.com/2015/04/01/pf/taxes/irs-penalties/

Re: Why expat Americans are giving up their passports

#140

This affects my girlfriend. She has a dual passport but only lived in the US to the age of six months. We are are British but live in Spain which already makes for complex tax arrangements, and this on top of things is just crazy. How the hell does the US think it has the right to tax people who haven't lived there for over 30 years?

Does your girlfriend have access to services as a US citizen? Such as embassies, entrance to the US without a visa, or evacuation in case of war? Who should pay for those services if your girlfriend doesn't want to?

You say this like other countries don't also offer those services. Almost every western country does, and none of them tax their citizens abroad.

The UK embeds the cost of consular protection and embassy services into the renewal cost of a passport - approximately £15 in 2010, probably more now. It's an insurance payment that most people will never use, so it doesn't need to cost very much per person.

Citizens of a number of countries can enter the US without a visa. They don't also have to fill out tax returns in the US.

Post reply on HN