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Ion: Cross-platform OpenGL library from Google

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Re: Ion: Cross-platform OpenGL library from Google

#21

Post by ilaksh »

imron wrote: post #18
ilaksh wrote: post #15

This illustrates one of the serious issues with C++: numerous code files in a project authored relatively recently that are dedicated to basic application plumbing such as memory allocation/tracking and concurrency. Its 2016. There are a number of performant cross-platform systems/languages that have good built-in facilities for these basic plumbing problems. C++ is an outdated language, and the entire mindset and ec…

To provide performance improvements that you don't get using the built in facilities. You don't have to write these things yourself, but if you're trying to eke out every last drop of performance (either at runtime or build time) then you have the option to do so.

Half of C or C++ projects have code for these types of plumbing. That's a lot of re-implementation on behalf of 'eking out performance'.

Re: Ion: Cross-platform OpenGL library from Google

#22

Post by ilaksh »

pcwalton wrote: post #17
ilaksh wrote: post #15

This illustrates one of the serious issues with C++: numerous code files in a project authored relatively recently that are dedicated to basic application plumbing such as memory allocation/tracking and concurrency. Its 2016. There are a number of performant cross-platform systems/languages that have good built-in facilities for these basic plumbing problems. C++ is an outdated language, and the entire mindset and ec…

I'm not exactly a fan of C++, but this isn't fair. What you're describing is more of a problem with this project's coding style than the language. Most of https://github.com/google/ion/tree/master/ion/base is covered either by the STL or Boost; most of what the C++ committee has been doing lately consists of trying to encourage people to not do what this project is doing (by improving the breadth of the standard libr…

Should be covered by core aspects of the language, and like you said its most. Its 2016, the standard library and language should handle concurrency and memory allocation which all programs have to do.

Re: Ion: Cross-platform OpenGL library from Google

#23

Post by ilaksh »

fsloth wrote: post #19
ilaksh wrote: post #15

This illustrates one of the serious issues with C++: numerous code files in a project authored relatively recently that are dedicated to basic application plumbing such as memory allocation/tracking and concurrency. Its 2016. There are a number of performant cross-platform systems/languages that have good built-in facilities for these basic plumbing problems. C++ is an outdated language, and the entire mindset and ec…

"one of the serious issues with C++: numerous code files in a project authored relatively recently that are dedicated to basic application plumbing such as memory allocation/tracking and concurrency." For some applications, manually tending to the basic plumbing is a necessity and not a burden. I.e high performance applications tend to be memory bouns. I agree that C++ is not a right tool for every job and that as a…

After decades we should have good performant ways to do those things by now, without these guys having to reinvent it.

Re: Ion: Cross-platform OpenGL library from Google

#24

Post by pcwalton »

ilaksh wrote: post #22
pcwalton wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not exactly a fan of C++, but this isn't fair. What you're describing is more of a problem with this project's coding style than the language. Most of https://github.com/google/ion/tree/master/ion/base is covered either by the STL or Boost; most of what the C++ committee has been doing lately consists of trying to encourage people to not do what this project is doing (by improving the breadth of the standard libr…

Should be covered by core aspects of the language, and like you said its most. Its 2016, the standard library and language should handle concurrency and memory allocation which all programs have to do.

It is completely legitimate to have important features in the standard library as opposed to baked into the language itself.

Re: Ion: Cross-platform OpenGL library from Google

#26

Post by fsloth »

ilaksh wrote: post #23
fsloth wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"one of the serious issues with C++: numerous code files in a project authored relatively recently that are dedicated to basic application plumbing such as memory allocation/tracking and concurrency." For some applications, manually tending to the basic plumbing is a necessity and not a burden. I.e high performance applications tend to be memory bouns. I agree that C++ is not a right tool for every job and that as a…

After decades we should have good performant ways to do those things by now, without these guys having to reinvent it.

I suppose one would need a theory encompassing most of high performance applications to achieve that.

Also, that library seems to run on a quite large subset of common platforms. I don't think there is a high level language with as painless integration to as many platforms as C++ does.

The thing with multiple platform support is that it's a really dirty realworld-bound problem. That is, no matter what one does, there will be incompatibilities and unexpected bugs. The best anyone can do, is to pick a platform with as wide userbase on the platforms one wants to support and use that if one wants to minimize headache caused by problems between third party components.

There is no joy in high level abstractions if the execution stalls on implementation related bugs.

Re: Ion: Cross-platform OpenGL library from Google

#27

Post by alblue »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #16
ilaksh wrote: post #15

This illustrates one of the serious issues with C++: numerous code files in a project authored relatively recently that are dedicated to basic application plumbing such as memory allocation/tracking and concurrency. Its 2016. There are a number of performant cross-platform systems/languages that have good built-in facilities for these basic plumbing problems. C++ is an outdated language, and the entire mindset and ec…

Curious notion. C++ has perhaps the richest library set in the world.

Only if you've never seen libraries for other languages: there are an order of magnitude more for the JVM or JavaScript, to name two.

Re: Ion: Cross-platform OpenGL library from Google

#28

Post by z3t4 »

This might be what I need, but it needs guides and tutorials ... Basically what I'm looking for is a thin client that can render a canvas, or image, and get keyboard/mouse inputs. And if possible use the HTML Canvas API, and run JavaScript. Basically something like nw.js or Electron, but with only a canvas. With cross platform support.

Re: Ion: Cross-platform OpenGL library from Google

#29

Post by pjmlp »

imron wrote: post #18
ilaksh wrote: post #15

This illustrates one of the serious issues with C++: numerous code files in a project authored relatively recently that are dedicated to basic application plumbing such as memory allocation/tracking and concurrency. Its 2016. There are a number of performant cross-platform systems/languages that have good built-in facilities for these basic plumbing problems. C++ is an outdated language, and the entire mindset and ec…

To provide performance improvements that you don't get using the built in facilities. You don't have to write these things yourself, but if you're trying to eke out every last drop of performance (either at runtime or build time) then you have the option to do so.

Many times it is to get the performance improvements you think you should need, but actually never will.

Having been coding since the days of Assembly being a normal language for business applications, I never seen a programming community so obsessed with micro-optimizations per code line, (without using profilers, because programmer knows best), like the C one.

And by correlation the C sub-communities from C++ and Objective-C ones.

Other communities think first into getting their data-structures and algorithms right, use the profiler and then optimize.

Re: Ion: Cross-platform OpenGL library from Google

#30

Post by pjmlp »

pcwalton wrote: post #17
ilaksh wrote: post #15

This illustrates one of the serious issues with C++: numerous code files in a project authored relatively recently that are dedicated to basic application plumbing such as memory allocation/tracking and concurrency. Its 2016. There are a number of performant cross-platform systems/languages that have good built-in facilities for these basic plumbing problems. C++ is an outdated language, and the entire mindset and ec…

I'm not exactly a fan of C++, but this isn't fair. What you're describing is more of a problem with this project's coding style than the language. Most of https://github.com/google/ion/tree/master/ion/base is covered either by the STL or Boost; most of what the C++ committee has been doing lately consists of trying to encourage people to not do what this project is doing (by improving the breadth of the standard libr…

I have seen the C sub-community of C++ obsessed with things like what makes the compiler generate more optimized code, i++ or i = i + 1.

This goes for every code line that one writes, most of the time backed up by urban legends and popular beliefs instead of profiling the code.

Whereas other programming languages cultures, tend have a more meaningful approach to optimizing software.

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