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How the Fight Over Transgender Kids Got a Leading Sex Researcher Fired

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Re: How the Fight Over Transgender Kids Got a Leading Sex Researcher Fired

#71

Post by viraptor »

Cyph0n wrote: post #39
viraptor wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cause may be though that they just feel that way. I remember that since the beginning of the primary school there was a boy who pretty much perfectly integrated with girls. The clothes were the only difference from the outside. He explicitly identified himself as a girl. And that was from the age of 9 until 16 (if I count the years correctly...). He was very far from genderless. Actually now that I remember it, i…

Did he have any brothers? I also recall people I studied with behaving like that because they only had sisters to play with.

I believe he was a single child, but that was a long time ago...

Re: How the Fight Over Transgender Kids Got a Leading Sex Researcher Fired

#72

Post by [deleted] »

andrelaszlo wrote: post #13
bruceb wrote: post #4

"In 2016, there’s fairly solid agreement about the proper course of treatment for otherwise healthy, stable young people who have persistent gender dysphoria, and who are either approaching puberty or older than that: You help them transition to their true gender. The process is different from person to person, but for an 11-year-old, it might include a round of puberty-blocking hormones to prevent the development of…

Most people are perfectly happy giving hormones to kids with other problems (growth hormone deficiency, for example). You seem to think it's morally wrong somehow ("think of the children") but maybe I'm reading your comment wrong? "Professionals who treat gender identity disorder in children have begun to refer and prescribe hormones, known as a puberty blocker, to delay the onset of puberty until a child is believed…

[deleted]

Re: How the Fight Over Transgender Kids Got a Leading Sex Researcher Fired

#73

Post by apta »

I would postulate that this is because of the decline of family values and traditional roles in Western countries. With problems due to what is known as feminism, SWJs and the like, everything is being watered down and wishy washy.

Leonard Sax has talked about some important social topics in today's Western society. The media now influences how kids are raised, and how they see their parents. The influence of parents over their kids is gone in the name of liberalism and open-mindedness. The family unit is being broken down, and we are already seeing the consequences of that.

Re: How the Fight Over Transgender Kids Got a Leading Sex Researcher Fired

#74

Post by glass55 »

apta wrote: post #73

I would postulate that this is because of the decline of family values and traditional roles in Western countries. With problems due to what is known as feminism, SWJs and the like, everything is being watered down and wishy washy. Leonard Sax has talked about some important social topics in today's Western society. The media now influences how kids are raised, and how they see their parents. The influence of parents…

> the decline of family values and traditional roles in Western countries

> With problems due to what is known as feminism, SWJs and the like, everything is being watered down and wishy washy.

Rad-fems are loud but they don't run the show. Corporations, Brands do. Corporation and Brands want to make more money. In order to do that, they need to find new segments of the population they will sell stuff to (stuff that are less and less useful).

Yesterday the "traditional christian white family" got that new fridge or car like in the ad, today gays get this or that product from brand X. Tomorrow Brands will target Trans, Muslims or whatever but in order to do that and not piss off old customers they need to control the narrative thus social influence. Is that bad? that's just how things are. Rad-fems, SJW and co are a fad and a tool,they are working for corporations for free. Proof is they don't question the foundations of modern western societies. They are narcissistic. Brands and corporations need them in order to sell more stuff, period.

Basically changes in modern western society are directly related to capitalism and the consumer society. They are not really driven by ideology anymore. Ideologues are just puppets. Watch that whole "islamophobia" finger pointing thing for instance. I bet a few years from now most brands will sell hijabs. They can't today because they'd risk a consumer backlash.

edit: sorry for my broken english.

Re: How the Fight Over Transgender Kids Got a Leading Sex Researcher Fired

#75

Post by apta »

glass55 wrote: post #74
apta wrote: post #73

I would postulate that this is because of the decline of family values and traditional roles in Western countries. With problems due to what is known as feminism, SWJs and the like, everything is being watered down and wishy washy. Leonard Sax has talked about some important social topics in today's Western society. The media now influences how kids are raised, and how they see their parents. The influence of parents…

> the decline of family values and traditional roles in Western countries > With problems due to what is known as feminism, SWJs and the like, everything is being watered down and wishy washy. Rad-fems are loud but they don't run the show. Corporations, Brands do. Corporation and Brands want to make more money. In order to do that, they need to find new segments of the population they will sell stuff to (stuff that a…

Yeah, capitalism plays a big role as well. The focus on money without caring about morals or responsibilities seems to also play a role in the breaking up of the family unit, which in turn is producing more "liberal/open minded" likes.

I wonder if anybody stopped to think about how much "gender dysphoria" was an issue in previous societies. It seems to be purely a modern mental illness. I'm not talking about actual hormonal and physical issues such as hermaphroditism, that's something else.

Re: How the Fight Over Transgender Kids Got a Leading Sex Researcher Fired

#76

Post by dragonwriter »

Fuxy wrote: post #36
SeanDav wrote: post #9

I can't help thinking that there really is a large element of adults applying adult values to children here. > "...research suggests that most gender-dysphoric kids will, in the long run, end up identifying as cisgender." If this really is true, then the approach offered by Dr Zucker makes far more sense to me - to allow the child to make up his/her own mind over time and provide an understanding and sympathetic envi…

From the limited psychology books and research I read as a hobby it is actually true and there's a very good example of that in Japanese society where it accepted for young children to be attracted or even in love with other children of the same sex. It is considered as something they will grow out of even if sometimes they don't. This leads me to believe that Dr. Zucker is right and he is yet another victim of uninf…

> there's a very good example of that in Japanese society where it accepted for young children to be attracted or even in love with other children of the same sex.

> It is considered as something they will grow out of even if sometimes they don't.

Sexual orientation and gender identity are two different things (you can be trans without being attracted to people of the same biological sex, and vice versa.)

So, while the example you refer to (if true) might be relevant to discussion of whether sexual orientation drifts from childhood (or, perhaps, whether environmental pressures get people to outwardly conform to heteronormative social expectations when their orientation is homo- or bi-sexual), it doesn't seem anything directly to do with gender identity discussion.

Re: How the Fight Over Transgender Kids Got a Leading Sex Researcher Fired

#77

Post by dragonwriter »

bruceb wrote: post #4

"In 2016, there’s fairly solid agreement about the proper course of treatment for otherwise healthy, stable young people who have persistent gender dysphoria, and who are either approaching puberty or older than that: You help them transition to their true gender. The process is different from person to person, but for an 11-year-old, it might include a round of puberty-blocking hormones to prevent the development of…

I'm kind of disturbed by this and think that we will eventually look back on it as a sign of the primitive barbarism of today's society [0], but for nearly opposite reasons from the usual right-wing transphobic reasons: I suspect a substantial source of gender dysphoria -- if not the dominant source -- isn't a fundamental incompatibility of internal identity with biological sex features, but a fundamental incompatibility of internal identity with imposed social gender stereotypes where socially-perceived gender is tied to outward biological sex characteristics.

To the extent this is the case, this approach amounts to making children conform their outward sex characteristics to society's gender stereotypes that most closely correspond to their internal identity. Which may be less barbaric than trying to force them to conform their behavior to the gender stereotypes that most closely match their outward sex characteristics, but not much less.

[0] I do want to emphasize that, in saying that, I am not arguing against the idea that its the best approach we have available now, or that parents and clinicians shouldn't choose this approach; I'm saying that I strongly suspect that the reason that it may be the best approach we have available is a much more fundamental problem with our social approach to gender.

Re: How the Fight Over Transgender Kids Got a Leading Sex Researcher Fired

#78

Post by dragonwriter »

whitegrape wrote: post #37
justinpombrio wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me try. I frankly find it bizarre that so many things -- colors, clothes, toys, certain behaviors -- that should have nothing to do with gender are associated with gender. Why are toy isles even gendered? Why does everything for girls have to be pink? The kids wouldn't care if the adults hadn't already hoisted the distinction on them. I feel like, if we got rid of all these false associations, the difference betw…

In the nicest possible way I'd say you're missing the point. To what degree gender is a social construct vs actually having non-minimal differences in the brain depending on your chromosomes is largely settled (IMO), the real question is just what is going on with gender dysphoria. Is it (and do we treat it as) a mental illness? (The DSM-V calls it a disorder.) What are the causes? Is it just attention-seeking? Or is…

> To what degree gender is a social construct vs actually having non-minimal differences in the brain depending on your chromosomes is largely settled (IMO)

Gender (socially ascribed) is completely a social construct, consisting both of categorization by outward characteristics into some number of genders, and social stereotypical roles for those genders.

Biological sex features are entirely biological, but not entirely genetic (there are substantial environmental factors), and the genetic portion is more complex than most people thing -- and isn't strictly binary at a genetic level, even before the variations in phenotype due to other factors come into play.

Gender identity is complicated, and I don't think its at all well settled what the basis is; there's certainly some influence from the surrounding societies construct of gender, there's certainly some relation (beside just the biological sex features on which social gender constructs are overtly based) from biology (genetic and otherwise), and I don't think there is any good model of exactly what contributions of each type exist, what other contributions exist, etc.

Re: How the Fight Over Transgender Kids Got a Leading Sex Researcher Fired

#79

Post by dragonwriter »

Chris2048 wrote: post #70
Dylan16807 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Puberty hits at different ages. An artificial delay is not a big problem. Doing nothing until 18 causes massive irreversible changes.

Does messing with puberty in this way not affect health and mortality probabilities?

> Does messing with puberty in this way not affect health and mortality probabilities?

One of the compelling reasons for treating gender dysphoria -- including by this means -- is that doing so (or not doing so, in the other direction) does, yes, substantially affect health and mortality.

Re: How the Fight Over Transgender Kids Got a Leading Sex Researcher Fired

#80

Post by dragonwriter »

Cyph0n wrote: post #47
ascorbic wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty much exactly the other way around. Puberty was much later, mainly due to nutrition. Edit: I should add a source. It's dropped by five years since 1920, and 7 years since 1860. That's massive. http://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/oct/21/puberty-adole...

I'm not talking about puberty, but mental maturity. An 11 year old boy back then would likely be working to support his family. Thanks for the info though.

> I'm not talking about puberty, but mental maturity. An 11 year old boy back then would likely be working to support his family.

That doesn't mean that they would have more "mental" maturity (particularly, in any sense relevant to the instant discussion.)

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