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Gmail Will Warn If Message Is Not Authenticated/Encrypted

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Re: Gmail Will Warn If Message Is Not Authenticated/Encrypted

#111

Post by KirinDave »

mynameisvlad wrote: post #100
KirinDave wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, you have no reliable way to assert your personal mail server is not bugged and observed right now. You're one judge's pen-stroke away from having personal property seized and then it's just a matter of how real your machine's physical security measures are.

You have no reason to suspect it either. Yes, in this hypothetical scenario your mail server or your ISP's server might be compromised, and yes, in this scenario, there wouldn't be a big difference. But we don't live in hypothetical scenarios. Paranoia is great and all, but let's be real. An average Joe's personal mail server is more than likely not bugged nor observed, and if communication happens in TLS, then there…

> We all know Google is doing it, though.

What, precisely, do we "know" Google/Microsoft/FUDCo is doing? Certainly not willingly collaborating with every quasi-legal search and seizure presented to them.

Re: Gmail Will Warn If Message Is Not Authenticated/Encrypted

#112

Post by bsder »

KirinDave wrote: post #98
mynameisvlad wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, no, it really isn't. None of that really occurs on a personal server, and local ISPs probably don't do wholesale data storage because that's not their business, but it is Google's.

Well, you have no reliable way to assert your personal mail server is not bugged and observed right now. You're one judge's pen-stroke away from having personal property seized and then it's just a matter of how real your machine's physical security measures are.

> Well, you have no reliable way to assert your personal mail server is not bugged and observed right now.

Quite true. If you, personally, are a target of the NSA, you are totally fucked. We know that they will make up evidence if they cannot find some.

However, we put locks on our doors even though most of them can be picked very easily. Why?

Security best practice is "defense in depth". You defend at each level to make it more expensive for an attacker. The goal is to make attacks against your stuff more expensive.

If you make the government have to dispatch someone physically, there is a vast amount more friction. There was an inspector from Scotland Yard who once commented that "If your drives are encrypted such that it takes us more than 40 hours of work, your drives are not going to convict you. We will spend our time on gathering other evidence." Physically seizing a server is annoying paperwork.

So, the goal is to prevent them from being able to dragnet low-level offenses for cheap. If you're a murder suspect and they have good reason to come after you, then they're coming after you irrespective of the cost.

Re: Gmail Will Warn If Message Is Not Authenticated/Encrypted

#113

Post by cornholio »

tyre wrote: post #68
cornholio wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yep surprised they haven't rolled one out yet. Ideally placed. In fact, they will fight tooth and nail against it since their business model relies on having access to the plain text of the message. It's the very reason they are releasing this technology: a user sees a padlock icon that's confusing similar to other "encrypted" mail offerings, for example OpenPGP. For Google, it's essential that end-to-end encryptio…

How would I search my encrypted inbox? Either Google knows my private key, in which case this doesn't seem to buy us anything, or I can't search. I search a lot.

With encrypted indexes maintained on the client end. Web search is a complex problem, but searching a single user's mailbox is child's play, you don't need Google for that. Client end processing could work for advertising too, but at that point you have an information leak that severely weakens security, the client will ask for adds relevant to terms found in the message.

Re: Gmail Will Warn If Message Is Not Authenticated/Encrypted

#114

Post by mynameisvlad »

KirinDave wrote: post #111
mynameisvlad wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have no reason to suspect it either. Yes, in this hypothetical scenario your mail server or your ISP's server might be compromised, and yes, in this scenario, there wouldn't be a big difference. But we don't live in hypothetical scenarios. Paranoia is great and all, but let's be real. An average Joe's personal mail server is more than likely not bugged nor observed, and if communication happens in TLS, then there…

> We all know Google is doing it, though. What, precisely, do we "know" Google/Microsoft/FUDCo is doing? Certainly not willingly collaborating with every quasi-legal search and seizure presented to them.

Do you even know what you originally replied to? Because it's right there. We already know Google stores a great big swath of data about you for various purposes, including advertising. We know that one of the many sources of this data is what is gleamed from scanning emails for advertisements. Don't act like it's not common knowledge.

Re: Gmail Will Warn If Message Is Not Authenticated/Encrypted

#115

Post by packetslave »

lmm wrote: post #110
Navarr wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These aren't requirements. Gmail is a mail client. What it is doing is adding warnings. Without SPF/DKIM you can't be authenticated. Google is showing the user that they cannot verify the sender. Without TLS email is sent in the clear. Google is showing the user that sensitive information will be visible when sent over the network. You can run your server fine without this, but users will be warned that you're not fo…

No, best practices are to avoid using any of that and trusting anyone's servers. S/MIME if you trust the CA system, PGP if you don't. Supporting either of those would be a real step forward for privacy - but of course if Google can't snoop on your email then it's not helping them target their ads.

but of course if Google can't snoop on your email then it's not helping them offer you a high-quality email service for free by showing you (hopefully) relevant and unobtrusive ads

Fixed that for you.

Re: Gmail Will Warn If Message Is Not Authenticated/Encrypted

#116

Post by mayerzahid »

Agari is on a mission to eliminate email as a channel for cyber attacks and enable businesses and consumers to interact safely.

Create your free DMARC record here: https://app.agari.com/dmarc/record_creator

Here is a webinar with Steve Jones, Executive Director of DMARC.org, John Rae-Grant of Google and Mike Jones, Agari Director of Product Management talking about email authentication. https://www.agari.com/project/webinar-the-authenticated-emai...

Re: Gmail Will Warn If Message Is Not Authenticated/Encrypted

#118

Post by Tepix »

KirinDave wrote: post #78
etiam wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More worrisome, "Your message has been added to your permanent record at wholesale data storage and may be used against you, in perpetuity, by current and/or future regimes, partner corporations and other select criminal organizations (tax-funded or independent) for reasons including but not limited to financial or political gain, manipulation, incrimination, assassination and personal entertainment."

Which is different from any other email provider in any substantial way (including your local ISP or personal server) because... they have a reasonable hope for reliable storage? Seriously: this is calling out Google in a way that's comical since it's equally applicable to your own computer.

You can use full disk encryption on your own server. Not every country has laws that force you to forfeit your crypto passwords

Re: Gmail Will Warn If Message Is Not Authenticated/Encrypted

#119

Post by Zigurd »

skybrian wrote: post #74
jcranmer wrote: post #64

Unfortunately, this is the sort of a change that's a red herring for any actual improvements to email security. The use of unencrypted or encrypted link to the receiving email provider's MX server doesn't change all that much in terms of who can read the email: it's still sitting in plaintext on the recipient's server (as well as the sender's server), and the group of actors who can sniff traffic on the backbone like…

You're arguing that we shouldn't do anything, instead of taking a step in the right direction. Email is an old ecosystem, so it's not possible to make big improvements all at once.

It's a good step, but a very small step. It's been a long time since the Snowden leaks. You're pretty much naked to state surveillance without:

a) An open source client that encrypts your mail b) A public key resource with a web-of-trust

All the major Web portals/ecosystems could lock the spooks out of email payloads very effectively. That would still leave other issues to solve, but securing payload in flight and at rest seems like the first real milestone that makes a difference.

Re: Gmail Will Warn If Message Is Not Authenticated/Encrypted

#120

Post by michaelmior »

gscott wrote: post #47
tantalor wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> some new technology that Gmail demands > everyone is going to switch, now The article is pretty clear that gmail users can keep emailing others who don't support TLS or authentication; they will just now see an additional icon informing them of that condition. Nobody is being demanded to switch anything. disclaimer: works for Google

For now they will just warn on it. In a few months they will send it to spam. Just wait.

Maybe. But that's far from "without warning."
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