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The Authors Guild Is Still Wrong About Google's Book Scanning

fortune.com

21–30 of 49 posts

Re: The Authors Guild Is Still Wrong About Google's Book Scanning

#21

>In the “friends of the court” brief, it says the law was never intended to “permit a wealthy for-profit entity to digitize millions of works and to cut off authors’ licensing of their reproduction, distribution, and public display rights.” This "cutoff" language is part of what makes the Author's Guild argument fall down. The authors still get all the normal licensing rights as before, so the argument appears wrong…

Basically, they are saying that if anyone makes a profit off their work, they deserve a cut of it. Makes sense on the surface of it, but let's try applying this to other categories. Take for example a food critic. He makes his living from reviewing the creative output of various chefs. Without the chefs doing what they do, the critic wouldn't have an audience and therefore no newspaper column. So do the chefs deserve a cut of the critic's revenue? Of course a favorable review does tend to drive extra traffic to the restaurant, just as a positive match in Google Books can drive a sale to a given book.

Re: The Authors Guild Is Still Wrong About Google's Book Scanning

#22
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But Google then takes the digitised books and utilises that content for profit (every time you click buy, Google gets a cut of the sale) Google doesn't use the books scanned for profit. If they sell a book is because they already have it in Google Books, is not one of the scanned

They do definitely profit. They either gain referral fees, or they refer to themselves (Play Store) and thus get effectively free advertising (that would cost them money otherwise). When you click a link to Amazon for a specific book from a third party website, Amazon pays that website money for that referral. It is no different here except that one Google department sometimes sends it to another Google department.

> When you click a link to Amazon for a specific book from a third party website, Amazon pays that website money for that referral.

Only if the third-party website has signed up for the Amazon Associates program -- which must be disclosed on the site.

Re: The Authors Guild Is Still Wrong About Google's Book Scanning

#23
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google scans, stores, and indexes billions of web pages, with obvious and fairly incontestable public benefits. How are books any different? The contents of an article, a blog post, and a NY Times Best Seller all get the exact same copyright protections and considerations. What you're proposing is no different from saving the contents of a web page to your hard drive.

The web pages are open public access in machine-retrievable format though. Google purposely doesn't index content that supplies a robots file or header requesting it not to be indexed, and certainly doesn't borrow human accounts to allow Googlebot to also index registered-members-only online content. I'd argue that Google ought to have a similarly strong presumption that work distributed only in a non robot-parseable…

So all the copyright holders have to do is put a robots.txt file at the beginning of the book, and all is good? And really, there is no law that I'm aware of requiring Google (or anyone else) to honor robots.txt.

Re: The Authors Guild Is Still Wrong About Google's Book Scanning

#24

>In the “friends of the court” brief, it says the law was never intended to “permit a wealthy for-profit entity to digitize millions of works and to cut off authors’ licensing of their reproduction, distribution, and public display rights.” This "cutoff" language is part of what makes the Author's Guild argument fall down. The authors still get all the normal licensing rights as before, so the argument appears wrong…

> What the guild is actually trying to say, I think, is that this new use is something Google should have to pay for. That doesn't make sense to me. Books are no different than any other material, are they? If Google indexes this page, should they have to first get permission and pay somebody (us or maybe HN).

Fair use allows for this kind of thing, but is fuzzy: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use

The web is a little different. One factor is that robots.txt is effectively an opt-out. But no, in general indexing a site doesn't require permission.

Re: The Authors Guild Is Still Wrong About Google's Book Scanning

#25
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The web pages are open public access in machine-retrievable format though. Google purposely doesn't index content that supplies a robots file or header requesting it not to be indexed, and certainly doesn't borrow human accounts to allow Googlebot to also index registered-members-only online content. I'd argue that Google ought to have a similarly strong presumption that work distributed only in a non robot-parseable…

So all the copyright holders have to do is put a robots.txt file at the beginning of the book, and all is good? And really, there is no law that I'm aware of requiring Google (or anyone else) to honor robots.txt.

I don't think robots.txt has any legal standing, but I do think the fact that Google is willing to respect requests not to index content from everyone except print publishers of paid content is indicative of bad faith on their part.

Re: The Authors Guild Is Still Wrong About Google's Book Scanning

#26
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do definitely profit. They either gain referral fees, or they refer to themselves (Play Store) and thus get effectively free advertising (that would cost them money otherwise). When you click a link to Amazon for a specific book from a third party website, Amazon pays that website money for that referral. It is no different here except that one Google department sometimes sends it to another Google department.

> Fiction: Google is paid by booksellers like Amazon to include links on Google Books pages. > Fact: We provide links to booksellers on Google Books pages because we want to make it easier for users to buy books and for publishers to sell them. Booksellers don't pay to have their links included in Google Books, and Google doesn't receive any money if you buy a book from one of these retailers. http://www.google.es/go…

Except Google links to their own store in the US (Play Store) which they definitely do profit from directly.

Click the "Buy Book" link here:

https://books.google.com/books/about/Harry_Potter_and_the_So...

Unless Google are claiming they make no cut from Play Store book sales, which is laughable.

Re: The Authors Guild Is Still Wrong About Google's Book Scanning

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What the guild is actually trying to say, I think, is that this new use is something Google should have to pay for. That doesn't make sense to me. Books are no different than any other material, are they? If Google indexes this page, should they have to first get permission and pay somebody (us or maybe HN).

Fair use allows for this kind of thing, but is fuzzy: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use The web is a little different. One factor is that robots.txt is effectively an opt-out. But no, in general indexing a site doesn't require permission.

Right, and I'm saying that indexing a book shouldn't require permission either. Just as you can use robots.txt to opt out of indexing, so can you contact Google and tell them to remove your work from their index.

Re: The Authors Guild Is Still Wrong About Google's Book Scanning

#28
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So all the copyright holders have to do is put a robots.txt file at the beginning of the book, and all is good? And really, there is no law that I'm aware of requiring Google (or anyone else) to honor robots.txt.

I don't think robots.txt has any legal standing, but I do think the fact that Google is willing to respect requests not to index content from everyone except print publishers of paid content is indicative of bad faith on their part.

Do you have reason to believe that they do not respect requests from print publishers not to scan their books?

https://support.google.com/books/partner/answer/3365282?rd=1

https://www.google.com/googlebooks/publisher_library.html#op...

Regardless of whether they have a legal obligation to do so, they certainly make it sound like they obey such requests.

Re: The Authors Guild Is Still Wrong About Google's Book Scanning

#29
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google scans, stores, and indexes billions of web pages, with obvious and fairly incontestable public benefits. How are books any different? The contents of an article, a blog post, and a NY Times Best Seller all get the exact same copyright protections and considerations. What you're proposing is no different from saving the contents of a web page to your hard drive.

The web pages are open public access in machine-retrievable format though. Google purposely doesn't index content that supplies a robots file or header requesting it not to be indexed, and certainly doesn't borrow human accounts to allow Googlebot to also index registered-members-only online content. I'd argue that Google ought to have a similarly strong presumption that work distributed only in a non robot-parseable…

> Especially if they haven't even paid the copyright holder the regular fee to read the work

They have though. All the works scanned were either purchased by google in hardcopy form, or scanned in partnership with libraries that had purchased the books.

Re: The Authors Guild Is Still Wrong About Google's Book Scanning

#30

So I'm confused about this. Do Google actually own all of the books they've scanned? If I scanned millions of other peoples books and kept the scans, wouldn't I be in breach of copyright?

Google Books started their scanning with books held in university libraries (and the New York Public Library). While there might have been some variation from school to school the basic deal was Google and the school each got a copy. The university copies are largely, or entirely, held by HathiTrust [1] (who was also sued by the Author's Guild).

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Books_Library_Project

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HathiTrust

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