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How the Fight Over Transgender Kids Got a Leading Sex Researcher Fired

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Re: How the Fight Over Transgender Kids Got a Leading Sex Researcher Fired

#61

I've written and rewritten a comment for this thread several times now, but every time I get close to posting it, I feel obliged to go back and revise it. The simple truth is that, given how toxic and charged a lot of the activism is around this topic, I don't feel able to make any kind of substantive comment that won't be misinterpreted, deliberately or otherwise, and used to pillior me.

Let me try. I frankly find it bizarre that so many things -- colors, clothes, toys, certain behaviors -- that should have nothing to do with gender are associated with gender. Why are toy isles even gendered? Why does everything for girls have to be pink? The kids wouldn't care if the adults hadn't already hoisted the distinction on them. I feel like, if we got rid of all these false associations, the difference betw…

> Why does everything for girls have to be pink?

That's fairly recent. It wasn't until the early 20th century that blue and pink started being promoted as gender identifiers--and it was pink for boys, blue for girls. It stayed pink for boys, blue for girls until the 1940s, and then the pink for girls, blue for boys convention took hold.

From the '60s through the mid-80's the trend was toward gender-neutral clothing for kids, due to the rise of feminism. The style of feminism at this time had a strong anti-femminine bent.

The next generation of feminists took a more accepting approach to femininity, accepting that a woman could be the equal of a man and still also want to be feminine. Marketers picked up on this, and started pushing the blue means boy/masculine and pink means girl/feminine because having different categories leads to more sales (if a family has children of both sexes, they need to buy two sets of baby things instead of just passing the first baby's hand-me-downs on to the second baby). Hence, the spread of blue for boys, pink for girls beyond clothing to things like cribs, strollers, room paint, and so on.

Here is a nice article on this history of this: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/when-did-girls-st...

> I feel like, if we got rid of all these false associations, the difference between genders would be minimal, and that would make the sorts of problems discussed in the article a lot more manageable

There would probably still be some significant differences. Nearly every other mammal has significant sex-based [1] behavior differences, including primates. It would be astounding if humans did not. There is research that indicates that very young children do have built-in preferences for certain kinds of toys and that these preferences are different for boys and girls, and there is research that finds these same preferences in some non-human primates.

For instance, studies in two different monkey species found that girl baby monkeys preferred to play with dolls more than with trucks, and boy baby monkeys preferred the trucks over the dolls. See http://www.livescience.com/22677-girls-dolls-boys-toy-trucks...

Researchers looking into these preferences in human babies have found that they correlate with sex hormone levels. Boys with higher testosterone levels tend to have stronger preferences for "boy" toys. Girls with congenital adrenal hyperplasia (a condition that causes them to experience high levels of androgen in the womb) preferred "boy" toys, lending more credence to the theory that hormones are involved. (See previous link for more on this).

[1] I'm saying "sex-based" here rather than "gender-based" because when talking about more than just humans we need to stick to things we can externally observe. Since sex correlates very highly with gender in humans, this substitution works for most humans.

Re: How the Fight Over Transgender Kids Got a Leading Sex Researcher Fired

#62

I have difficulty seeing why gender is such a solid and psychologically important concept, as opposed to sex. Gender is the social layer of meaning attached to sex, while sex is a biological construct. Do males really need a sex change just to play with barbie dolls? Do females need really need to think about sex change just do play with "action figures"? That's an extreme change to make just so you can fit into soci…

> Do males really need a sex change just to play with barbie dolls? Do females need really need to think about sex change just do play with "action figures"? That's an extreme change to make just so you can fit into social roles.

I doubt we would be having this discussion if it was just about playing with culturally acceptable gender relative toys. I suspect, because of what I've heard and read, that feeling like your body does not match your mind, is traumatic and troubling. Additionally I suspect that without having experienced this feeling, it can be hard for those of us to understand quite what it feels like. As such, this is probably a good time to error on the side of caution, and accept that some people may have vastly different experiences from the norm, and we should support them where possible.

> And there are barriers that far surpass gender, like the barrier of money.

Do you have anything to back up that it's a bigger barrier? Keep in mind, we aren't talking just about gender, but whether you feel comfortable in your current gender. I can imagine not feeling comfortable with my own body being quite an issue, and overwhelming a lot of other problems I might have.

Re: How the Fight Over Transgender Kids Got a Leading Sex Researcher Fired

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To what degree gender is a social construct vs actually having non-minimal differences in the brain depending on your chromosomes is largely settled (IMO) I don't actually think this is true. Disclaimer: a close friend of mine studies this academically, so i'm probably incorrectly passing along a vague version of what i've been told, plus i have a certain level of personal investment in the issue. Anyhow, there's r…

I figured that sentence might be an issue, but I left it in anyway as an honest relay of my thinking. It may be dubious, and may one day be as dubious as the similar sentence applied to black people, but I think it's an entirely natural reaction (just as girls avoiding the boy with terrible acne in school) given our evolutionary history and unlikely to vanish due to social pressure -- it will just become better hidde…

You may be interested in this blog post, by Eric Raymond:

"Preventing visceral racism" http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=5001

In it he reports a similar "natural" reaction to some racial group that he'd never met before. But his theory is that simple exposure is enough for people to move past this, as long as they don't construct rationalizations for their initial feeling of "something isn't right here".

Kind of ironic, as he says a lot of things that many, myself included, would consider racist, but you never know, he may be onto something.

Re: How the Fight Over Transgender Kids Got a Leading Sex Researcher Fired

#64
post #56

Zucker is not the victim of misguided activism. He was fired because, simply, he wasn't doing his job, which is to provide (evidence-based) medical treatment for trans people, not peddle pseudo-scientific conversion therapy. If he'd done to adults what he did to kids, maybe he'd have been gone sooner.

From that article it did not seem to be the case? Is there any evidence that he was not practicing evidence-based medical treatments?

From what I know of it, Zucker's own report on patient outcomes doesn't come out showing much success, but I can't read it as I lack access to paid journals. There's also been published criticism of CAMH's practices.

More to the point, why would Zucker persist with his own method when there actually is evidence for the conventional approach?

Re: How the Fight Over Transgender Kids Got a Leading Sex Researcher Fired

#66
post #31
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current climate seems to force us into a "dammed of you do and damned if you don't" type of situation. Not doing reassignment is seen by some as forcing a gender upon someone, and doing it is seen by others as taking drastic action on youths which may be experiencing gender confusion but might not eventually settle on needing gender reassignment. Lose lose all around.

I get twitchy, the whole thing makes me twitchy. Partly because I know a few who eschew the whole hormones and surgery. Somewhat or not so somewhat defiantly. I'd really hate for those people to be pressured into something that not only do they not need, but results in a lower quality of life.

Well, that's the rub, isn't it? Everyone thinks they are working in the best interest of the children. At least that's what they tell themselves, regardless of whether their own agendas are coloring their perception of reality, which is probably happening somewhat on both sides. Unfortunately what's best for one child may be the opposite of what's best for another child in this situation.

Re: How the Fight Over Transgender Kids Got a Leading Sex Researcher Fired

#67
post #2

This is silly. Young children are essentially genderless. If they express gender issues, work on it using therapy to find what the cause is. I don't see the need to make them crossdress etc. at such a young age.

> Young children are essentially genderless.

Children know what gender they are and learn gender norms from a young age, in fact.

> If they express gender issues, work on it using therapy to find what the cause is. I don't see the need to make them crossdress etc. at such a young age.

Nobody is being forced to "cross dress" (I put this in quotes, since I would argue the term doesn't really fit in the context of trans children). This is something kids do for themselves, along with expressing such thoughts as what gender they are, what toys they prefer to play with, what other kids they like playing with.

And then people like Zucker tell them they mustn't, because it puts them "at risk of homosexuality or transsexuality" (this is me paraphrasing, but it's very close to what he's said), instruct their parents to force them not to, and they end up with psychological issues for the rest of their life.

Re: How the Fight Over Transgender Kids Got a Leading Sex Researcher Fired

#68
post #59
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From that article it did not seem to be the case? Is there any evidence that he was not practicing evidence-based medical treatments?

That's certainly my impression too. The article sounded like he had evidence on his side, and the activists distorted some of the events. Then again, this is only one article. Maybe the article itself is biased. There's really no good way for us to be sure. Though to me, the story sounds reasonable, and the actions of everybody involved sound understandable from their viewpoint (even when it is misguided).

The article is indeed biased. A good example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11064927

It claims there is "strong evidence", but doesn't point to it, and dismisses most of the evidence against Zucker.

Re: How the Fight Over Transgender Kids Got a Leading Sex Researcher Fired

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I figured that sentence might be an issue, but I left it in anyway as an honest relay of my thinking. It may be dubious, and may one day be as dubious as the similar sentence applied to black people, but I think it's an entirely natural reaction (just as girls avoiding the boy with terrible acne in school) given our evolutionary history and unlikely to vanish due to social pressure -- it will just become better hidde…

You may be interested in this blog post, by Eric Raymond: "Preventing visceral racism" http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=5001 In it he reports a similar "natural" reaction to some racial group that he'd never met before. But his theory is that simple exposure is enough for people to move past this, as long as they don't construct rationalizations for their initial feeling of "something isn't right here". Kind of ironic, as h…

Doesn't this argument potentially defeat itself as a positive thing?

If I spent enough time with racists, I might not find racism as repulsive. Describing losing a reaction as "moving past it" suggests to me he had a suspicion of that reaction for other reasons; Had he not, he might have considered himself 'desensitised'.

What I mean by saying this is, flip it around, and people can tolerate a lot of things that are bad. that feeling of "something isn't right here" isn't always wrong.

Re: How the Fight Over Transgender Kids Got a Leading Sex Researcher Fired

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is reversible I do not think delaying puberty is reversible. Puberty is an integral part of growing up and maturing into an adult. Delaying it will change the child's mental make-up and I do not consider that to be natural or something that should be done with anybody. IMO the safest thing is to let the child attain majority, and then allow them to make whatever choice they want.

Puberty hits at different ages. An artificial delay is not a big problem. Doing nothing until 18 causes massive irreversible changes.

Does messing with puberty in this way not affect health and mortality probabilities?
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