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ZCash (formerly Zerocash/Zerocoin) technology preview

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Re: ZCash (formerly Zerocash/Zerocoin) technology preview

#81
post #36

> We believe that privacy strengthens social ties and social institutions, protects societies against their enemies, and helps societies to be more peaceful and more prosperous. It's time to have a serious conversation about whether this is actually true when it comes to financial privacy. Our society is governed by money. Money governs our production directly, and it governs our regulations indirectly since votes ca…

I think this is an extremely important discussion to have. Democracy requires some form of transparency applied to government. Ideally, private citizens have maximum privacy to avoid abuses from corrupt government, or fellow citizens, but government itself should not have maximum privacy. I'd argue it should have maximum transparency.

However, an unbeatable and untraceable cryptographic money scheme effectively would make bribery of power brokers undetectable, or at the very least, untraceable to it's source.

What we gain in personal privacy, we will trade off for increased government corruption, and it is corruption and its abuses I'd argue are a greater danger than government snooping. If you look at many nations that are struggling, even those with ample revenues, the failure to improve the standard of living can often be traced to corruption and just blatant theft and embezzling.

Government or large organizational snooping is a serious problem in countries without adequate protection of individuals and where discrimination goes unpunished. If I live in North Korea, I want maximum privacy. The threat model in OECD countries is different. While having say, the government of Sweden read my emails is disconcerting, the repercussions and threat from that are far smaller.

The world is full of corruption and cronyism at all levels, both in government, and in large organizations. To what extent are we increasing their power to harm by assuming that maximum privacy effectively disarms their power against us?

This is a truism accepted in the cypherpunks movement that's never really been tested, and it is deeply intertwined with libertarian thinking, that cryptoanarchy or laissez-faire regulation, imposed by technology, leads to a situation where big power brokers can do less damage. But we've also seen that when such organizations are opaque and unwatched, they often become more dangerous.

Re: ZCash (formerly Zerocash/Zerocoin) technology preview

#82
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, two of the Four Horsemen of the Infocalypse rear their ugly heads: 8.3.4. "How will privacy and anonymity be attacked?" [...] like so many other "computer hacker" items, as a tool for the "Four Horsemen": drug-dealers, money-launderers, terrorists, and pedophiles. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Horsemen_of_the_Infocalyp...

I think this moral panic (for lack of a better term) is omnipresent because it's actually true to some degree. You can't seriously claim these groups wouldn't benefit from anonymous, secure payment systems. However: - They already have anonymous, secure payment systems (cash, drugs, jewels, shell companies, etc) - The cat is out of the bag, so they're going to have it anyway - These proverbial Horsement do more than…

>These proverbial Horsement do more than just move money around; there's still plenty of room for detective work.

This. Taking away everyone's privacy because somebody might use privacy to break the law is dumb. You want to bust drug dealers? Bust them for selling drugs.

Re: ZCash (formerly Zerocash/Zerocoin) technology preview

#83
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this moral panic (for lack of a better term) is omnipresent because it's actually true to some degree. You can't seriously claim these groups wouldn't benefit from anonymous, secure payment systems. However: - They already have anonymous, secure payment systems (cash, drugs, jewels, shell companies, etc) - The cat is out of the bag, so they're going to have it anyway - These proverbial Horsement do more than…

>These proverbial Horsement do more than just move money around; there's still plenty of room for detective work. This. Taking away everyone's privacy because somebody might use privacy to break the law is dumb. You want to bust drug dealers? Bust them for selling drugs.

"Taking away" is interesting language. The ability to transfer money without either meeting in person (meetings can be surveilled) or generating records subject to disclosure (shell companies and laundering schemes can be deciphered through forensic accounting) is unprecedented. We've never lived in a time when people had cryptographic certainty of the secrecy of their transactions.

Re: ZCash (formerly Zerocash/Zerocoin) technology preview

#84
It bothers me that there are "investors" for this and a CEO.

What happens if it takes off? There's one or two founders and a couple investors that essentially control the flow of money in the system. Bitcoin was appealing precisely because it lacked a center control.

Is there something I'm missing here?

Re: ZCash (formerly Zerocash/Zerocoin) technology preview

#85
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>These proverbial Horsement do more than just move money around; there's still plenty of room for detective work. This. Taking away everyone's privacy because somebody might use privacy to break the law is dumb. You want to bust drug dealers? Bust them for selling drugs.

"Taking away" is interesting language. The ability to transfer money without either meeting in person (meetings can be surveilled) or generating records subject to disclosure (shell companies and laundering schemes can be deciphered through forensic accounting) is unprecedented. We've never lived in a time when people had cryptographic certainty of the secrecy of their transactions.

It may be easier to give money to people you don't meet, but cash never left records.

Re: ZCash (formerly Zerocash/Zerocoin) technology preview

#86
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, two of the Four Horsemen of the Infocalypse rear their ugly heads: 8.3.4. "How will privacy and anonymity be attacked?" [...] like so many other "computer hacker" items, as a tool for the "Four Horsemen": drug-dealers, money-launderers, terrorists, and pedophiles. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Horsemen_of_the_Infocalyp...

> drug-dealers People profiting off the illegality of drugs who are drawn to high-risk/high-reward work. > money-launderers People who want to keep ANY of their income sources private. Also see: Anyone who uses cash. > terrorists "There is neither an academic nor an accurate legal consensus regarding the definition of terrorism." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_terrorism This makes it a "weasel word" (or…

> > money-launderers

> People who want to keep ANY of their income sources private. Also see: Anyone who uses cash.

That's not what money laundering is, I really wish people would stop perpetuating this misinformation. Money laundering is when somebody takes illegal income and "cleans" it by creating fake clients that pay a front business. You obviously have to pay taxes, etc but at the end of the day you have a completely clean cut of your illegal income.

Anonymous payment methods only solve one (very small part) of the money-laundring problem: getting the money to someone who will clean it. After that, you still need to create fake clients and do your tax returns (which require believable income figures). So you're still stuck with trying to convince the IRS (or tax office of your choice) that the money you gained was legitimate.

Re: ZCash (formerly Zerocash/Zerocoin) technology preview

#87
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>These proverbial Horsement do more than just move money around; there's still plenty of room for detective work. This. Taking away everyone's privacy because somebody might use privacy to break the law is dumb. You want to bust drug dealers? Bust them for selling drugs.

"Taking away" is interesting language. The ability to transfer money without either meeting in person (meetings can be surveilled) or generating records subject to disclosure (shell companies and laundering schemes can be deciphered through forensic accounting) is unprecedented. We've never lived in a time when people had cryptographic certainty of the secrecy of their transactions.

Cash and dead drops provide both of those properties. There are many other ways to investigate crimes. Just because the internet is new doesn't mean that human rights don't apply for this new communication medium.

Re: ZCash (formerly Zerocash/Zerocoin) technology preview

#88
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Taking away" is interesting language. The ability to transfer money without either meeting in person (meetings can be surveilled) or generating records subject to disclosure (shell companies and laundering schemes can be deciphered through forensic accounting) is unprecedented. We've never lived in a time when people had cryptographic certainty of the secrecy of their transactions.

It may be easier to give money to people you don't meet, but cash never left records.

Surveilling and busting in-person deals with suitcases full of cash was the bread and butter of law enforcement for decades, so much so that it's a Hollywood trope.

Re: ZCash (formerly Zerocash/Zerocoin) technology preview

#89
post #36

> We believe that privacy strengthens social ties and social institutions, protects societies against their enemies, and helps societies to be more peaceful and more prosperous. It's time to have a serious conversation about whether this is actually true when it comes to financial privacy. Our society is governed by money. Money governs our production directly, and it governs our regulations indirectly since votes ca…

> Everything about our society will be decided by the people with the most money if people accept anonymous currencies. Democracy isn't possible when you can't hope to detect when influence is being purchased.

Traceable currency doesn't solve that problem. People don't have to use literal money to buy influence. The politician does what you want and you make sure their kid gets into the right college. Or you hire their son in law at $250K/year. Or you run advertising that isn't officially part of their campaign but helps them stay in office. Or refrain from running critical advertising.

The problem is not proving that each transaction took place. It's proving that one was a quid pro quo for another. Which the currency tells you nothing about.

> If I know someone is buying influence and I want to reject their power to do so, I can stop accepting any money they've used in that way.

And if you're one person or ten people then nothing happens. But if you have a sufficiently powerful coalition with an organizational structure capable of causing the coalition to act in unison then you become the tyranny of the majority and it is the minority who needs protecting from you.

Re: ZCash (formerly Zerocash/Zerocoin) technology preview

#90
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be easier to give money to people you don't meet, but cash never left records.

Surveilling and busting in-person deals with suitcases full of cash was the bread and butter of law enforcement for decades, so much so that it's a Hollywood trope.

Sure, but it's not like we're all keeping records of cash transactions for the mandarins to go through later when they become annoyed.
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