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New GitHub Tool Lets Coders Build Software Like Bridges

wired.com

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Re: New GitHub Tool Lets Coders Build Software Like Bridges

#41

Post by Dirlewanger »

brandonmenc wrote: post #31

> She envisions aging banks using it to upgrade decades-old Fortran code to Ruby or any other modern language. I know it's just an article, but... If anyone thinks they should replace working Fortran code that does numerical analysis with Ruby, they should be fired.

Yeah, this scared me.

I'm in webdev, and while it does have its worrying trends with regards to the larger trade of programming, they are largely insular and contained. Only way to explain this kind of behavior is to have worked your entire career in webdev (with horse blinders on) and have next-to-no understanding of computer science. That, or she doesn't give a shit because Github is paying her a fuck-ton not to.

I'm going to guess in this case, it's the latter.

Re: New GitHub Tool Lets Coders Build Software Like Bridges

#42

Post by captn3m0 »

tartuffe78 wrote: post #23
dhatch387 wrote: post #9

Surprised Wired is writing about this. Scientist is a great release from GH. I think the technique is powerful, but not particularly novel.

Seems like native advertising

This is what I thought as well. I'd seen it yesterday, but couldn't correlate that this article would be talking about the same tool after seeing the headline. "Lets Coders Build Software Like Bridges" doesn't make it sound like a refactoring toolkit at all.

Are bridges refactored 5 years after being built?

Re: New GitHub Tool Lets Coders Build Software Like Bridges

#43

Post by ska »

gravypod wrote: post #39
brandonmenc wrote: post #31

> She envisions aging banks using it to upgrade decades-old Fortran code to Ruby or any other modern language. I know it's just an article, but... If anyone thinks they should replace working Fortran code that does numerical analysis with Ruby, they should be fired.

You have to conflicting issues on this point. The first being that the code works fine, the deployment works fine, everything is working just fine. Do. Not. Touch. It. These are some of the most financially important systems in America to date. It's not a question about if they have to work, it's a question about just how bad things would get if they didn't work for even a day. The next problem that comes up is what…

   "Slowly start rewriting all of the stack, and transferring everything to more modern systems designed to be just as long term as their predecessors so that in the event of a replacement being needed it exists."
This process is obvious, and has been going on for decades already.

There are challenges of course, but thinking the problem is coding infrastructure and the lack of "modern" languages like ruby is a category error.

Re: New GitHub Tool Lets Coders Build Software Like Bridges

#44

Post by gravypod »

ska wrote: post #43
gravypod wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to conflicting issues on this point. The first being that the code works fine, the deployment works fine, everything is working just fine. Do. Not. Touch. It. These are some of the most financially important systems in America to date. It's not a question about if they have to work, it's a question about just how bad things would get if they didn't work for even a day. The next problem that comes up is what…

"Slowly start rewriting all of the stack, and transferring everything to more modern systems designed to be just as long term as their predecessors so that in the event of a replacement being needed it exists." This process is obvious, and has been going on for decades already. There are challenges of course, but thinking the problem is coding infrastructure and the lack of "modern" languages like ruby is a category…

I agree, that is not the way I feel.

You must remember that relatively speaking compared to Fortran, C is a "modern" language.

Re: New GitHub Tool Lets Coders Build Software Like Bridges

#45

Post by plq »

gravypod wrote: post #39
brandonmenc wrote: post #31

> She envisions aging banks using it to upgrade decades-old Fortran code to Ruby or any other modern language. I know it's just an article, but... If anyone thinks they should replace working Fortran code that does numerical analysis with Ruby, they should be fired.

You have to conflicting issues on this point. The first being that the code works fine, the deployment works fine, everything is working just fine. Do. Not. Touch. It. These are some of the most financially important systems in America to date. It's not a question about if they have to work, it's a question about just how bad things would get if they didn't work for even a day. The next problem that comes up is what…

> What happens when some of this old hardware breaks and it becomes not only impossible to find replacement parts but also impossible to fabricate new ones in house.

You get a modern Fortran compiler, you compile the old code for the new stuff and off you go. What am I missing?

> Eventually, like all languages, Fortran will die out as time goes on. So few people know it now that it is inevitable.

Like ALL languages? Ha, tell that to the COBOL programmers at the heart of some financial institutions mate. Heck, RPG is still supported on some IBM hardware.

Re: New GitHub Tool Lets Coders Build Software Like Bridges

#46

Post by gravypod »

plq wrote: post #45
gravypod wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to conflicting issues on this point. The first being that the code works fine, the deployment works fine, everything is working just fine. Do. Not. Touch. It. These are some of the most financially important systems in America to date. It's not a question about if they have to work, it's a question about just how bad things would get if they didn't work for even a day. The next problem that comes up is what…

> What happens when some of this old hardware breaks and it becomes not only impossible to find replacement parts but also impossible to fabricate new ones in house. You get a modern Fortran compiler, you compile the old code for the new stuff and off you go. What am I missing? > Eventually, like all languages, Fortran will die out as time goes on. So few people know it now that it is inevitable. Like ALL languages?…

I'm talking about languages on a larger scale. Do you mean to tell me that COBOL or Fortran will last _forever_?

All languages die out eventually. It does not matter that it is a programming language, the concept will remain.

Nothing is perpetual, nothing lasts forever. I hate to break it to you, but eventually something will give.

Re: New GitHub Tool Lets Coders Build Software Like Bridges

#47

Post by markbnj »

jbrooksuk wrote: post #25
markbnj wrote: post #22

What is the difference between this and writing your services to an API that runs behind something like haproxy that can be quickly configured to direct requests to whatever stack you like?

Scientist seems to run both versions of the code.

Both versions of an API can run behind haproxy as well, and requests can be switched between them based on many different criteria from OSI layer 4 on up. I guess I just don't see what was novel or interesting about the basic idea of switching between two implementations that satisfy a declared interface. It was just a few years back that DI was all the rage.

Re: New GitHub Tool Lets Coders Build Software Like Bridges

#48

Post by brandonmenc »

gravypod wrote: post #39
brandonmenc wrote: post #31

> She envisions aging banks using it to upgrade decades-old Fortran code to Ruby or any other modern language. I know it's just an article, but... If anyone thinks they should replace working Fortran code that does numerical analysis with Ruby, they should be fired.

You have to conflicting issues on this point. The first being that the code works fine, the deployment works fine, everything is working just fine. Do. Not. Touch. It. These are some of the most financially important systems in America to date. It's not a question about if they have to work, it's a question about just how bad things would get if they didn't work for even a day. The next problem that comes up is what…

How about a third option: keep training new programmers on Fortran and improve tooling - just like we do with every other language (and, afaik, this is happening with Fortran.)

Most Fortran programmers I know aren't programmers by trade - they're scientists or analysts who need to crunch numbers. Fortran doesn't need to be as feature complete or cutting edge as more general purpose languages.

Re: New GitHub Tool Lets Coders Build Software Like Bridges

#49

Post by brandonmenc »

gravypod wrote: post #44
ska wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Slowly start rewriting all of the stack, and transferring everything to more modern systems designed to be just as long term as their predecessors so that in the event of a replacement being needed it exists." This process is obvious, and has been going on for decades already. There are challenges of course, but thinking the problem is coding infrastructure and the lack of "modern" languages like ruby is a category…

I agree, that is not the way I feel. You must remember that relatively speaking compared to Fortran, C is a "modern" language.

> You must remember that relatively speaking compared to Fortran, C is a "modern" language.

In what way?

Fortran code is certainly not lower level than C and in many cases higher level. Furthermore, they are closer in age, for example, than Smalltalk is to Ruby.

Re: New GitHub Tool Lets Coders Build Software Like Bridges

#50

Post by gravypod »

brandonmenc wrote: post #49
gravypod wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, that is not the way I feel. You must remember that relatively speaking compared to Fortran, C is a "modern" language.

> You must remember that relatively speaking compared to Fortran, C is a "modern" language. In what way? Fortran code is certainly not lower level than C and in many cases higher level. Furthermore, they are closer in age, for example, than Smalltalk is to Ruby.

Fortran: Created 1957 C: Created 1972

And those where not simply 15 years, they were a very important 15 years of development.

Relatively, C is more modern than Fortran. It is also certainly more widespread.

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