Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apple Ordered to Pay $625M to Patent Troll in FaceTime Lawsuit

techcrunch.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 164 posts

Re: Apple Ordered to Pay $625M to Patent Troll in FaceTime Lawsuit

#71

Post by EarthMephit »

ethbro wrote: post #9
SCHiM wrote: post #3

Ugh, disgusting. Think of how much damage that troll will now be able to wreak. With that kind of money it can buy all sorts of other patents and start the whole progress over again.

What we really need are patent co-ops. The problem as I see it is: patents exist to allow innovators to get paid for their inventions (setting aside the USPTO not being able to do its job correctly due to under-funding and granting bad patents), patents therefore have a monetary value, however that monetary value in fact scales with the monetary resources of the company it's held by (i.e. small companies cannot legal…

Will membership in a patent co-op protect against a patent troll?

- A patent troll has no products, which could infringe on a co-op's patents - So they can still sue you without risk of retaliation.

- A patent troll often has a financial structure designed to protect any assets that it wins through lawsuits (For instance, maybe if they win a lawsuit they could immediately pay a dividend to shareholders). So even if you win a lawsuit against them the main assets they hold are dodgy patents.

Re: Apple Ordered to Pay $625M to Patent Troll in FaceTime Lawsuit

#72

Post by pnathan »

rms_returns wrote: post #63
Retric wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Systemic corruption. The area benefits from having lot's of Patent cases.

Then why doesn't your White House or Obama do something about it? (non-US citizen here).

The Presidential aka executive branch does not have that kind of direct authority in the United States. At best, the executive can start a criminal investigation, which case must be made before the court branch; the laws that were broken were set by the legislative branch.

Courts in the US are given an extremely high degree of independence, in the goal of limiting corruption.

Re: Apple Ordered to Pay $625M to Patent Troll in FaceTime Lawsuit

#73

Post by azemPC »

rms_returns wrote: post #63
Retric wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Systemic corruption. The area benefits from having lot's of Patent cases.

Then why doesn't your White House or Obama do something about it? (non-US citizen here).

The US President isn't a dictator.

Re: Apple Ordered to Pay $625M to Patent Troll in FaceTime Lawsuit

#74

Post by rhino369 »

gnaritas wrote: post #13
ethbro wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What we really need are patent co-ops. The problem as I see it is: patents exist to allow innovators to get paid for their inventions (setting aside the USPTO not being able to do its job correctly due to under-funding and granting bad patents), patents therefore have a monetary value, however that monetary value in fact scales with the monetary resources of the company it's held by (i.e. small companies cannot legal…

> The problem as I see it is: patents exist to allow innovators to get paid for their inventions That is not why patents exist. Patents exist for the good of mankind to convince innovators to share their trade secrets with the public. Paying those innovators is not the goal, it is the means by which the goal is achieved, making the inventions public. You've confused the carrot for the end goal. Anyone wanting to thin…

Both reasons are the goal of the patent system. And seeing how shitty patent specs are it seems like encouraging invention is probably the bigger goal.

Re: Apple Ordered to Pay $625M to Patent Troll in FaceTime Lawsuit

#75

Post by rasz_pl »

bbarn wrote: post #22
sageikosa wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/02/jury-apple-must-p... "East Texas Jury"...

I don't get this. Is there some paid off official there? Different standards? Why is it such a great place to win patent troll suits - which seem to get overturned in higher courts? Is the idea that a win there will stop the defendant from trying to appeal?

Corruption? in a place with Samsung sponsored ice skating ring in the middle of a desert? never!

Re: Apple Ordered to Pay $625M to Patent Troll in FaceTime Lawsuit

#76

Post by DannyBee »

Cuuugi wrote: post #6

I don't understand. If "all four of VirnetX’s patents have been found invalid by the patent office" as Apple claims, why hasn't the case been dismissed?

Here's a real answer (unlike the other "corruption" and "blah blah blah" answers):

First, note that the federal circuit has ruled on these patents before, and upheld them. http://patentlyo.com/media/2014/09/Virnetx-v-Cisco.pdf

Apple conveniently leaves this part out.

(i think it's a BS ruling, but it is a final appeals court ruling on the validity of the patents).

As for the PTO finding them invalid:

If you look at the file wrappers of these patents, you will see what apple means is "someone has requested review of these patents by the PTO, and they have initially been found invalid".

(Apple's request to review validity was in fact, denied)

Go to http://portal.uspto.gov/pair/PublicPair Enter the patent numbers Click "image file wrapper".

So they haven't "been found invalid", instead, they are going to trial before the PTAB to see whether they are invalid.

Note: On a number of these patents, Apple's review requests have been denied a number of times before someone else's review request was granted

Re: Apple Ordered to Pay $625M to Patent Troll in FaceTime Lawsuit

#77

Post by jahewson »

rms_returns wrote: post #63
Retric wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Systemic corruption. The area benefits from having lot's of Patent cases.

Then why doesn't your White House or Obama do something about it? (non-US citizen here).

Only congress has the power to do something about it - but they're disporportionately conservative and pro-patent and can't agree on anything.

Re: Apple Ordered to Pay $625M to Patent Troll in FaceTime Lawsuit

#78

Post by jahewson »

bbarn wrote: post #22
sageikosa wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/02/jury-apple-must-p... "East Texas Jury"...

I don't get this. Is there some paid off official there? Different standards? Why is it such a great place to win patent troll suits - which seem to get overturned in higher courts? Is the idea that a win there will stop the defendant from trying to appeal?

It's the judges and the court - somehow a mindset has developed there which is at odds with most other patent cases in the US. This is a part of the country which has very little, so big corporations fighting patent cases bring a lot of money into the area and prestige to a court which otherwise would be in a backwater. It's a federal court, so the same laws apply as anywhere else, but there's enough wiggle room in the way those laws are written to allow this kind of "bad faith" interpretation. The solution is for congress to tighten up the laws, but that won't happen anytime soon.

The idea isn't just that a win there will discourage an appeal, but that the court will hear cases that most other courts would dismiss out of hand based on obvious prior art, vague claims, or USPTO investigation results. So the defendant is tied up in a court case, which includes an expensive jury trial. Worse still, the jury is so biased that they're all but guaranteed to loose the case. Most savvy defendents would choose to settle in that situation - which is all the patent-holder actually wants.

Re: Apple Ordered to Pay $625M to Patent Troll in FaceTime Lawsuit

#79

Post by draw_down »

comex wrote: post #45

Almost as much as the $1B Apple was originally supposed to win from Samsung for equally silly patents. (It's since been slashed down to a tenth of that, but still.) Is it too much to say "live by the sword, die by the sword"?

If you like. But Apple is not a "non-practicing entity"

Re: Apple Ordered to Pay $625M to Patent Troll in FaceTime Lawsuit

#80

Post by [deleted] »

veritas20 wrote: post #60
robotnoises wrote: post #12

From the VirnetX website: http://virnetx.com/company/virnetx-promise/ "Cutting-edge secure communications technology is only one of the essential elements of our products – another is integrity. ..." lol, what products?

It's actually sad that this company with only patents and no products is a listed public company on a regulated US exchange.

[deleted]
Post reply on HN