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Retirement Nomads: Too poor to retire and too young to die

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101–110 of 198 posts

Re: Retirement Nomads: Too poor to retire and too young to die

#101
post #6

Westfall — 5 feet 1 tall, with a graceful dancer’s body she honed as a tap-dancing teenager — is as stubborn as she is high-spirited. But she finds herself these days in a precarious place: Her savings long gone, and having never done much long-term financial planning, Westfall left her home in California to live in an aging RV she calls Big Foot, driving from one temporary job to the next. This is just shameful. You…

You are being down-voted because the US has near universal basic income for older folks & the subject of the story collects it. It's one of the real questions I have about basic income schemes generally. The examples we have are not powerful arguments in favor of them.

Exactly. She's already getting her social security and other income. Is she not to blame for 50,000 in credit card debt? Or buying a mobile home, which is never a good investment. It sucks that people are in poverty, but just bailing everyone out after making poor financial decisions is a bad solution.

Re: Retirement Nomads: Too poor to retire and too young to die

#102
post #3

Its tricky to feel sympathy w/ the lady in this article. She's part of the most benefitted generation, the "hardships" shown are induced by her own choices (expensive dinner, speeding ticket) and by world standards she's won the lottery to even be alive and living comfortably at her age. Alas, thats the trick with other people's stories-- difficult to project how it would feel if I were in their shoes.

Every time I read stories like this, I think of dozens of things, little things, that people can do to improve their situation, one thing at a time.

First off, the speeding ticket. You're in an RV, how do you go 15 over the limit? Doesn't make sense to me. You're wasting gas and painting a big red target on your back for the cops. If I were in her situation, I'd have already trained myself to keep to the speed limit no matter what. It's possible, don't tell me it isn't. Even more possible in an RV with limited acceleration. I found it harder to speed in my 20 year old truck than I did to not speed.

Second, the busted water pump. With all the time she had on her hands, surely she could have done some research in the library on how to repair these things and done it herself as opposed to spending hundreds / thousands on paying someone to do it for her. There was no rush, she was able to take her time finding someone, why not take that same time to save even more money?

I say these things because I used to be really hard up for money and resources, and I was able to get resourceful in return. The human brain is amazing, it finds a way. You just have to listen to it and be willing to try stuff out that's outside your comfort zone. For me this kind of resourcefulness is never too far from my mind, as comfortable as my dev lifestyle is right now, if economic circumstances forced me onto the street, I'd work out a way to thrive pretty quick, I simply cannot abide the slow degradation of self-worth that other people in these sorts of situations seem to experience.

But the more I think about it, the more I realize she's already being as resourceful as she can. It's a reminder that deep down, people really do differ vastly in ability, and that we need to be compassionate and generous to those caught in nasty situations with no way to pull themselves out.

But at the same time we need to encourage the kind of inventiveness and resourcefulness that made America great. Times are tough, but we can be tougher.

Re: Retirement Nomads: Too poor to retire and too young to die

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are being down-voted because the US has near universal basic income for older folks & the subject of the story collects it. It's one of the real questions I have about basic income schemes generally. The examples we have are not powerful arguments in favor of them.

The US has near universal basic income for older folks. No, we don't -- because the amount you get depends on how much you've earned before you're eligible. And because it isn't nearly enough to actually live on (and has stayed flat while living costs have skyrocketed). The whole point of basic income is that it's (1) unconditional and (2) pegged to actual, real basic living expenses.

The woman in the article receives $1390/month in COLA'd fixed income and free ''major medical'' health care. I can tell you from personal experience: this is ''enough to actually live on''. It's not super comfortable but then we're talking about someone who worked for decades and ended up with a net worth of zero. I'm not assigning blame I'm just restating a fact. Where my family is from in the midwest a studio apartment is $300/month in a safe enough area, and there are plenty of very low cost community resources and activities. Obviously not a highly desirable area but people survive there with a roof over their heads, food on the table, and a community to spend time with. Back to the woman in the article: to me it seems that her real problem isn't poverty but rather clinging to her RV and her wanderlust lifestyle. Which of course she's entitled to do, but we shouldn't look at it as an example of the system failing when it's actually the opposite.

Re: Retirement Nomads: Too poor to retire and too young to die

#105

> Nearly one-third of U.S. heads of households ages 55 and older have no pension or retirement savings and a median annual income of about $19,000. So now we finally get to the root of why Baby Boomers are so upset with the Millenial generation - there's nobody to bail them out of the mess they created.

Perhaps you should ask the questions: Why did Boomers not have enough income to put savings aside? If savings was put aside, what rate of return did it earn? And what remains of those savings? But heh, f___ old people for decisions that were made before you were born, amirite?

>Why did Boomers not have enough income to put savings aside?

To be fair, plenty of millenials don't have enough income to put savings aside either, and they're not even getting social security benefits.

Re: Retirement Nomads: Too poor to retire and too young to die

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"a 300$ ticket is the difference between being broke and having food on the table for her." And the same could be said for a 18-year-old, living out on his or her own. But in both cases, it is the result of a poor choice (inattentive driving) rather than a major flaw of society, and has nothing to do with being "too poor to retire and too young to die", as was the supposed focus of the article.

The punishment for this speeding infraction is $300. Think about what kind of effect a $300 fine has on your life, and compare it to the impact on this woman's life. The punishment is to pay a fine, not to starve. We should not punish people with starvation, it's cruel and unusual. The punishment is different for you than for her, and that's not just.

Think about what kind of effect a $300 fine has on your life, and compare it to the impact on this woman's life.

I have. That's why I don't speed.

$300 lost means that I have to find what to cut from a budget to support a family of four, while trying to pay off all my bills with a goal to become debt free before I become this woman's age. Unlike the woman in the article, we don't choose tours of Frank Lloyd Wright buildings over dental care.

I'd like to know how the woman in the article budgeted her money 34 years ago, when she was my age. Then we're closer to comparing apples with apples, even though according to the article she never had children to further strain her finances.

A lot of the discussion in this entire thread involving the traffic ticket focuses on how such a ticket is devastating to the poor and the weakest of wrist-slaps to the uber-rich. I see very little discussion of the potential impact on the majority of us in the middle class, or how personal responsibility factors into the mix.

Re: Retirement Nomads: Too poor to retire and too young to die

#107

Here's a breakdown of the US 2015 combined (Federal, State, Local) government spend: Total Spend: 6.18tn Total Revenue: 6.08tn Healthcare: 1.32tn (21.3%) Pension: 1.20tn (19.7%) Education: 0.93tn (14.8%) Defense: 0.80tn (13.1%) Welfare: 0.50tn (8.2%) Other*: 1.43tn (23.1%) *Other = Protection, Transportation, General Government, Interest Currently, social security is taking in ~$74bn less in payroll taxes than it pay…

Only $74bn short? That works out to $232/yr each, or an extra $20 per citizen per month.

That doesn't sound like all that much to spend to ensure Social Security stays available.

I think if you told people "we need to raise revenue through taxes 1.6% to ensure Social Security stays solvent for all working adults", most reasonable people would agree to that. At least, I would hope most people would think that's fairly reasonable.

Re: Retirement Nomads: Too poor to retire and too young to die

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well she gets $1200 a month from social security, which is already essentially a basic income for old folks.

Rent for a studio. Who needs food, toiletries, or prescription medicines?

She's living in small towns! What does a studio cost in small California town? $500/month?

Re: Retirement Nomads: Too poor to retire and too young to die

#109

> Nearly one-third of U.S. heads of households ages 55 and older have no pension or retirement savings and a median annual income of about $19,000. So now we finally get to the root of why Baby Boomers are so upset with the Millenial generation - there's nobody to bail them out of the mess they created.

Perhaps you should ask the questions: Why did Boomers not have enough income to put savings aside? If savings was put aside, what rate of return did it earn? And what remains of those savings? But heh, f___ old people for decisions that were made before you were born, amirite?

Perhaps I will try to answer:

1. There is no evidence Boomers did not have enough income to put savings aside; rather, their years of prosperity, bubbles, and behaviors indicate they squandered or bilked each other out of large sums of money.

2. Historical interest rates are about 7% - at least that's the peg for most public pensions rate of growth, which is not unrealistic in a healthy US economy. The Baby Boomer population which did not save enough was tempted by higher returns in the equities or housing casinos, gambled, lost a great deal of whatever wealth they had in bubbles bursting, and now what? I should feel all happy that my government is going to lift the funds out of my pocket?

Re: Retirement Nomads: Too poor to retire and too young to die

#110
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree with your sentiment, I do not agree that it is my responsibility to take care of your parents. I want to take care of mine, and socializing these costs just means I'm forced to pay for your parents at the expense of mine. There is no replacement for the family unit. Obviously I feel differently about people who have no family, but that is the exception not the norm.

Since everyone has 2 parents, essentially, it is absolutely trivial to work out a fair welfare scheme. This is much easier than most welfare systems.

Please explain this fair welfare scheme which is trivial to work out, because I'm not seeing how "every person has two parents" leads directly to it.
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