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Google plans to beam 5G internet from solar drones

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Re: Google plans to beam 5G internet from solar drones

#21
post #13
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bandwidth doesn't depend on the frequency you're occupying, but on the amount of spectrum available: you "usually" get in the order of 1 bps for every Hz of spectrum available for mobile: a 20Mz chunk of spectrum will give you ~20Mbps, no matter if it is 700MHz or 5 GHz. (Please notice that YMMV, LTE gets several times that, illustrative, bla bla bla, etc.). Higher frequencies have awful penetration and range, th…

Cellular network capacity is a function of channel width, modulation, and spatial reuse. Because there are many more low-frequency channels of a given width than high frequency ones, it's much easier to justify very wide channels at higher frequencies. The better propagation of lower frequencies is also a double edged sword. It's much easier to build a very dense cellular network if cell sites far apart can't hear ea…

> there are many more low-frequency channels of a given width than high frequency ones, it's much easier to justify very wide channels at higher frequencies.

Right conclusion, wrong (mis-stated?) premise. There are more high-frequency channels of a given width than low-frequency ones. 700-800 MHz is a whopping 12.5% change, and it gets you 100 MHz to work with, but 5.725-5.875 is only a 2.5% change and gets you 150 MHz to work with.

Re: Google plans to beam 5G internet from solar drones

#22
post #17

I wish I could understand how engineers are able to transmit so much wireless data at those distances, with so many devices at the same time. I guess antenna technologies have improved a lot for the last 10 years, and I still wonder where the subscription cost goes: are there patents for those new types of antennas, are those antennas expensive to build, or does the cost just reflect the amount of antennas installed…

Google's Loon Project involves having the balloons float over the weather. So cloud cover isn't the issue. Batteries only have to function at night. Furthermore each drone will in software limit itself to N active connections (just like cell towers do), so you just use that N to calculate max battery draw, then size batteries appropriately.

Re: Google plans to beam 5G internet from solar drones

#23
post #17

I wish I could understand how engineers are able to transmit so much wireless data at those distances, with so many devices at the same time. I guess antenna technologies have improved a lot for the last 10 years, and I still wonder where the subscription cost goes: are there patents for those new types of antennas, are those antennas expensive to build, or does the cost just reflect the amount of antennas installed…

Google's Loon Project involves having the balloons float over the weather. So cloud cover isn't the issue. Batteries only have to function at night. Furthermore each drone will in software limit itself to N active connections (just like cell towers do), so you just use that N to calculate max battery draw, then size batteries appropriately.

I was talking about the battery of smartphones. In general smartphones are good at receiving data, but not so good at sending it because their batteries are very limited.

Re: Google plans to beam 5G internet from solar drones

#25
post #15
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bandwidth doesn't depend on the frequency you're occupying, but on the amount of spectrum available: you "usually" get in the order of 1 bps for every Hz of spectrum available for mobile: a 20Mz chunk of spectrum will give you ~20Mbps, no matter if it is 700MHz or 5 GHz. (Please notice that YMMV, LTE gets several times that, illustrative, bla bla bla, etc.). Higher frequencies have awful penetration and range, th…

Anyone got a resource that explains the relationship between spectrum/frequency/modulation-tech/etc and bandwidth in an understandable way for someone not-so-physics/signal-processing-literate? My [uninformed] intuition tells me that you can have theoretically infinite bandwidth over any spectrum or modulation scheme, but the cost/size/energy-requirement quickly gets prohibitively high because of the "sensitivity" su…

That's why they call it "bandwidth" - the width of the spectrum band is what determines the information throughput.

Wikipedia might work as a primer. See Nyquist & Shannon:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist%E2%80%93Shannon_sampli...

  For example, in order to sample the FM radio signals in the 
  frequency range of 100-102 MHz, it is not necessary to 
  sample at 204 MHz (twice the upper frequency), but rather it 
  is sufficient to sample at 4 MHz (twice the width of the 
  frequency interval).

Re: Google plans to beam 5G internet from solar drones

#26
I have been toying with one fantastic idea lately. I know why it would seem like a pure fantasy, and I'm not pretending that it's anything more at the moment, but give it some benefit of a doubt.

It's quite simple. Imagine, just for a second, that current trillion evaluations for all the unicorns will turn out to be true in some point in the future. How can it be? What will be going on in this fantastic world? There's only one possible explanation: internet ate everything.

The dotcom boom hanged on a very simple, explicit assumption: that internet commerce is viable. That people actually will spend money on the internet. Of course, it lead to a bubble, and that bubble burst, but the assumption itself turned out to be correct. More than that: the valuation that NASDAQ have given to the whole internet industry in the late 90s is a reality know. Of course, individual 90s startups weren't worth that money, but internet industry as a whole certainly is. Even if you judge it just by turnover, without even looking at prospects of growth.

So, the first step of internet revolution that was promised by dotcoms already happened. But what about the next step? No one is really talking about it, because it's too fantastic to believe in and nobody wants to be laughed at. But we know what it can theoretically be: the current wave of SV unicorns will _eat_ their respective industries.

Imagine it. 90% of taxi industry is Ubers, Lyfts, Getts. 90% of book industry is Amazon. (Wait, that almost already happened). 90% of TV is Netflix and stuff. 90% of payments are Square and Paypal. 90% of hotel industry is AirBnB, Booking.com and something else. Walmart have gone after Blockbuster, everybody orders groceries with online drone delivery. Giant malls stand abandoned, everybody's ordering from AliBaba. And so on.

Of course it sounds a little stupid; I drastically simplify it, so we can talk about it without spending time arguing about inconsequential details. And don't forget, all this is more like a fantasy right now.

But the point is, in this fantastic world such initiatives by Google, just as free basics by Facebook have nothing to do with charity. Remember, how in the 90s, the only companies that really made money of internet were telecom companies, because the only sure way to monetize an internet user was to charge him for access? (Oh, and porn of course). In contrast, in this fantasy world, the cost of internet access will become insignificant compared to all the money you can get from a person with internet access. And in this fantasy world internet corporations will gladly provide you the access for free. May be they will still charge you a couple of cents for 100Mbps to 1Gbps upgrade, but the 0 (zero) bps to 1Mbps upgrade will make so much money to them that you have no chances of paying for it.

Re: Google plans to beam 5G internet from solar drones

#27
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone got a resource that explains the relationship between spectrum/frequency/modulation-tech/etc and bandwidth in an understandable way for someone not-so-physics/signal-processing-literate? My [uninformed] intuition tells me that you can have theoretically infinite bandwidth over any spectrum or modulation scheme, but the cost/size/energy-requirement quickly gets prohibitively high because of the "sensitivity" su…

That's why they call it "bandwidth" - the width of the spectrum band is what determines the information throughput. Wikipedia might work as a primer. See Nyquist & Shannon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist%E2%80%93Shannon_sampli... For example, in order to sample the FM radio signals in the frequency range of 100-102 MHz, it is not necessary to sample at 204 MHz (twice the upper frequency), but rather it is suff…

When I first learned this it blew my mind at it's implications and then obviousness.

Shannon was a once-in-a-century genius...in a century of many once-in-a-century geniuses.

Re: Google plans to beam 5G internet from solar drones

#28
post #17

I wish I could understand how engineers are able to transmit so much wireless data at those distances, with so many devices at the same time. I guess antenna technologies have improved a lot for the last 10 years, and I still wonder where the subscription cost goes: are there patents for those new types of antennas, are those antennas expensive to build, or does the cost just reflect the amount of antennas installed…

It depends on a lot of things; OFDM modulation multi path and fading mitigation, MIMO space-time coding for channel capacity increases, adaptive beam forming, error correction, efficient power amplification, base-band processing.

For Google's line of sight application, the adaptive beam forming and power amplification are the main tech drivers.

Re: Google plans to beam 5G internet from solar drones

#29

I have been toying with one fantastic idea lately. I know why it would seem like a pure fantasy, and I'm not pretending that it's anything more at the moment, but give it some benefit of a doubt. It's quite simple. Imagine, just for a second, that current trillion evaluations for all the unicorns will turn out to be true in some point in the future. How can it be? What will be going on in this fantastic world? There'…

You know you could've condensed that entire post down to "I think Internet will eventually be free and subsidized by the companies that profit from the usage of it."?

Hell, Facebook's already doing it with Internet.org.

Re: Google plans to beam 5G internet from solar drones

#30

I have been toying with one fantastic idea lately. I know why it would seem like a pure fantasy, and I'm not pretending that it's anything more at the moment, but give it some benefit of a doubt. It's quite simple. Imagine, just for a second, that current trillion evaluations for all the unicorns will turn out to be true in some point in the future. How can it be? What will be going on in this fantastic world? There'…

Why is that a fantasy world? Most of that has already happened or is in the process of happening.
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