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The Shipping News Suggests Economic Weakness

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Re: The Shipping News Suggests Economic Weakness

#41
post #9

There are other reasons why Baltic Dry Index is falling - new megaships are reducing shipping costs. http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/11/20/dont-aban...

Of course you should use more than one indicator... like commodities getting completely crushed across the board:

http://finviz.com/futures_charts.ashx?t=ENERGY&p=w1

http://finviz.com/futures_charts.ashx?t=SOFTS&p=w1

http://finviz.com/futures_charts.ashx?t=METALS&p=w1

http://finviz.com/futures_charts.ashx?t=MEATS&p=w1

http://finviz.com/futures_charts.ashx?t=GRAINS&p=w1

Usually plummeting commodity prices are not a sign of economic activity, although they are priced in dollars so maybe a stronger dollar has something to do with it... but a strong dollar itself might suggest a flight to safety instead of global economic activity:

http://finviz.com/futures_charts.ashx?t=BONDS&p=w1

Re: The Shipping News Suggests Economic Weakness

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They won't walk away with better understanding, they'll walk away with worse. It's better to not understand a graph at all than to be mislead by it.

That's a stupid highbrow attitude. I suppose the same concept applies to any form of information? If we don't understand the whole story, it's not worth knowing any part of it?

It looks like you have an incomplete understanding of the meaning of 'mislead'.

Re: The Shipping News Suggests Economic Weakness

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many do. Not the sectarian economists hired to develop capitalist theology, but the ones you take seriously when you need to run a real capitalist economy. Here's a lucid explanation: "If you take an economics course, they’ll teach you, correctly, that if the government spends n dollars to stimulate the economy, it doesn’t really matter what it’s spent on: they can build jet planes, they can bury it in the sand and g…

they’ll teach you, correctly, that if the government spends n dollars to stimulate the economy, it doesn’t really matter what it’s spent on Forgive my ignorance on these matters - I know that if the government pays a work crew the work crew ends up with money in their pockets regardless of what specifically they build; but surely if you pay a work crew to build a useful freeway or a bridge (or a rail system if you pr…

Very true! Yet another reason why so many economies are absurd; they do not have properties we'd want an economy to fulfill.

Re: The Shipping News Suggests Economic Weakness

#44
post #41
post #9

There are other reasons why Baltic Dry Index is falling - new megaships are reducing shipping costs. http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/11/20/dont-aban...

Of course you should use more than one indicator... like commodities getting completely crushed across the board: http://finviz.com/futures_charts.ashx?t=ENERGY&p=w1 http://finviz.com/futures_charts.ashx?t=SOFTS&p=w1 http://finviz.com/futures_charts.ashx?t=METALS&p=w1 http://finviz.com/futures_charts.ashx?t=MEATS&p=w1 http://finviz.com/futures_charts.ashx?t=GRAINS&p=w1 Usually plummeting commodity prices are not a si…

A stronger dollar combined with a lack of a middle-class that can actually use the dollar's strength to consume more stuff means trouble.

Re: The Shipping News Suggests Economic Weakness

#45
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also don't appreciate that the Y axes are not 0-based.

Why zoom out and lose the fidelity? So people who don't actually pay any attention to the axes/labels/etc. can walk away with a slightly better understand of the graph with their casual glance than they otherwise would have?

I agree, if the interesting range of truck orders was 40000-50000 and the fluctuations between those values is the interesting information. However, here the article just mentioned the nose-dive to nearly zero at 2008, and then shows the graph where the number again dives to the x-axis. Then you take a second look and note it's a minor dip compared to 2008. The "interesting" range of truck sales had already been established in the article as 0-50000.

Arguing that axes should never be cut is silly indeed, but axes should also show the relevant ranges for the context (here the 2008 values for both x and y would make today's fluctuations look minor).

Re: The Shipping News Suggests Economic Weakness

#46
Last time this happened it was due to letters of credit abruptly being unavailable because of a worldwide bank crisis, due to a derivatives crash. Without letters of credit, nothing gets shipped. That's not what's happening today.

Low demand for commodities, also reflected in low prices, is driving the price of bulk shipping down. There's lots of slack capacity. But no problem getting a letter of credit if you are moving things.

Re: The Shipping News Suggests Economic Weakness

#47
The sky is not falling. This is Bear hype. A group he's connected with is probably short the market. Wait for the Black Swan to trigger just like the Bear Stearns trigger of last downturn. Keep an eye on the yield curve, the most important indicator. It's not bending yet.

I see these bears come out of the woods everytime they beat the "the bull run has been too long" drums.

Re: The Shipping News Suggests Economic Weakness

#48
post #4

The world economy is dominated by people in governments who believe that printing money, burying it and paying people to dig it up again will increase the amount of trucks built and goods shipped. No amount of failure of this theory will be enough for it to be abandoned, because it has a certain amount of truthiness to it, and it excuses profligate and wasteful behaviour. Both these things are fun and buy votes. The…

I don't buy it.

Boom & bust cycles are driven by the fundamental difficulty of quantifying value. Since there is no true value, people base their opinions on those of others (+delay), leading to "inertia," leading to oscillation. The government might exacerbate the oscillations, but the lion's share of responsibility lies with the market. Complaining that the oscillations happen because the market "just isn't free enough" represents a delusion about the qualities of free markets.

As for make-work, it's a compromise that nobody is happy with, but it is a compromise, and that's its value proposition. Some want to let the market clear without intervention by any means necessary, regardless of the social cost, based on (arguably misplaced) faith that this will ultimately make things better. Others think it's ridiculous that periodically attacking the foundation-tier Maslow needs of large swaths of the population is "a feature not a bug," and demand (arguably unsustainable) social policy to fix it. Make-work lies between the "free-market reckoning" and "re-distributional cash grant" extremes and so once the dust of democratic process has settled it's the thing that actually happens even though both sides see it as a poor alternative to their favored solution.

> The Baltic dry should be studied in conjunction with other indicators such as yield curves and indications of credit tightness.

The Baltic dry should be studied in conjunction with the reliable unreliability of the market in general. Since markets are as inherently unavoidable as physics or politics, we cannot simply wish them away. Instead, we should develop social policy to decouple the markets for well-understood core needs-providing infrastructure from the global economy in order to place bounds on the social cost of market corrections, which could then be allowed to happen (otherwise) unimpeded.

Re: The Shipping News Suggests Economic Weakness

#49
post #41
post #9

There are other reasons why Baltic Dry Index is falling - new megaships are reducing shipping costs. http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/11/20/dont-aban...

Of course you should use more than one indicator... like commodities getting completely crushed across the board: http://finviz.com/futures_charts.ashx?t=ENERGY&p=w1 http://finviz.com/futures_charts.ashx?t=SOFTS&p=w1 http://finviz.com/futures_charts.ashx?t=METALS&p=w1 http://finviz.com/futures_charts.ashx?t=MEATS&p=w1 http://finviz.com/futures_charts.ashx?t=GRAINS&p=w1 Usually plummeting commodity prices are not a si…

China had an outsized affect on comkodity demand, at the same time capacity has been over built for many years. For oil, obviously the US resurgence has been a huge factor, and for food crops they had a couple of very very good years globally (and new land has been brought online).

Re: The Shipping News Suggests Economic Weakness

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many do. Not the sectarian economists hired to develop capitalist theology, but the ones you take seriously when you need to run a real capitalist economy. Here's a lucid explanation: "If you take an economics course, they’ll teach you, correctly, that if the government spends n dollars to stimulate the economy, it doesn’t really matter what it’s spent on: they can build jet planes, they can bury it in the sand and g…

Funnily enough Chomsky is implicitly assuming that government spending has a crowding out effect, which is an idea popular with economists who are "hired to develop capitalist theology," as you label them. But, probably not. Even "social spending" opens up lots of procurement opportunities for the corporate manager. There might be some crowding out in real terms (government having political authority to exclude activ…

> "They see corporations as evil entities that spontaneously emerged from the ground to usurp the state"

This is the problem in an HN culture where commenters don't support claims with cites. Chomsky frequently explains that corporations are creations of the state, and they share the same interests to a first approximation. You can find it in the book I referenced, or google for sources.

This comment seems to paint him as a liberal who favors the state (blaming everything on corporations), when of course he's an anarchist who sees both state & its corporate creations as illegitimate top-down power structures.

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