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Update on 1/28 service outage

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Re: Update on 1/28 service outage

#141

Post by swalsh »

rburhum wrote: post #37

Yesterday I was being a bit of an ass to a few people about how "the whole point of using git is so that we can do decentralized code management and why these dependencies were being pulled from our private github if the could be sent point to point yadda yadda yadda". Then they proceeded to go over the list of package managers and dependencies we used and I had to shut up. Even when we host our own Docker Hub and pa…

I mean a really simple solution (simple to say, maybe not to do) would be for package managers to require a "backup" repository from a different domain, than if you get a 500 error try the second remote repository. Use git for its advantages.

Re: Update on 1/28 service outage

#142

Post by agwa »

brinker wrote: post #102
viperscape wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The package system for the rust language actually relies on github, as many found out during outage. I don't know if that will change, probably will with a read copy in a different git service.. but I thought it was interesting because I use github for everything save a few private projects, as I imagine most do. I'm not sure what to think of this, it seems backwards and grossly incompetent, yet here we are using it…

> The package system for the rust language actually relies on github, as many found out during outage. This is not quite correct (although close to it). Cargo doesn't rely on GitHub, but it expects that there is some publicly-accessible git repository from which it can pull the source for any crate, and most crates use GitHub. So it's not a particular choice of Cargo, but a side-effect of GitHub's popularity in the c…

The crates.io index is in a GitHub repository. Does Cargo fetch it directly from GitHub or from a set of redundant mirrors?

Re: Update on 1/28 service outage

#143

Post by gkoz »

brinker wrote: post #102
viperscape wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The package system for the rust language actually relies on github, as many found out during outage. I don't know if that will change, probably will with a read copy in a different git service.. but I thought it was interesting because I use github for everything save a few private projects, as I imagine most do. I'm not sure what to think of this, it seems backwards and grossly incompetent, yet here we are using it…

> The package system for the rust language actually relies on github, as many found out during outage. This is not quite correct (although close to it). Cargo doesn't rely on GitHub, but it expects that there is some publicly-accessible git repository from which it can pull the source for any crate, and most crates use GitHub. So it's not a particular choice of Cargo, but a side-effect of GitHub's popularity in the c…

You're mixing up cargo features and the crates.io package system. Cargo does allow git dependencies but primarily you're supposed to use versioned crates.io packages, which are indeed provided by crates.io (even if they are actually hosted on S3 or whatever) not GitHub.

Re: Update on 1/28 service outage

#144

Post by simula67 »

nemothekid wrote: post #116
seiji wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly right, but over the past six years there's been a strong (and accelerating) trend among developers of " lalala we don't want to know how anything works! give us an API and go away." Most developers I've seen reject even learning about networks or DNS or operating systems or databases. Such willful ignorance boggles the mind, but they are praised because their goals are shipping half-broken things as rapidly a…

> Exactly right, but over the past six years there's been a strong (and accelerating) trend among developers of "lalala we don't want to know how anything works! give us an API and go away." I will argue that this trend has always existed. I'm sure you can find an x86/68k/z80 developer complaining that developers are going "lalala we don't want to know how anything works! give us an the C-language and go away."* I'm…

As programmers, we need to know atleast one level below the abstractions to which we are programming to. For example, if you program in C you need to know a little bit of assembly, how objects are laid out in memory etc. This is how you write fast code and it helps with debugging too.

But if you are programming in C and notices that something goes wrong with the hardware, ( for example, an instruction does not do something that it is supposed to do ) you will have to ask for help since it is someone else's work that is faulty. Sounds reasonable ?

Re: Update on 1/28 service outage

#145

Post by yeukhon »

chatmasta wrote: post #124
rburhum wrote: post #37

Yesterday I was being a bit of an ass to a few people about how "the whole point of using git is so that we can do decentralized code management and why these dependencies were being pulled from our private github if the could be sent point to point yadda yadda yadda". Then they proceeded to go over the list of package managers and dependencies we used and I had to shut up. Even when we host our own Docker Hub and pa…

If this is a problem worth solving, you can absolutely solve it. The easiest would be through the use of a caching proxy and/or load balancing system. The caching proxy system could be as simple as setting up a squid cache for apt. Multiple projects exist which do this already. The load balancing system would involve keeping a private mirror of every repository in the dependency graph, and falling back to the mirror…

> The easiest would be through the use of a caching proxy and/or load balancing system.

Sorring if I sound like an asshole, but before we actually use the word "easiest", can you please share with us how to do all of that. It is not as easy as you claim, to be honest. Not just some /etc/hosts hijack.

Re: Update on 1/28 service outage

#146

Post by yeukhon »

banku_brougham wrote: post #43
bhaak wrote: post #10

"Millions of people and businesses depend on GitHub" Well, we shouldn't depend on it so much. I shudder at the thought what an outage of GitHub would mean for our company. This time, we were lucky as it was during the night in Europe. Unfortunately, I don't have the power to test this scenario in our company.

I like others am confused by this common sentiment. Github is the remote repo, but the version control is distributed so everyone has a copy. I'm pretty sure I can fill a few hours or more with work needing to be done on my local repo. FYI I'm not a professional software developer but I would like to know. The things that come to mind: issue trackers, messaging, not being able to see latest pull requests. Update: Now…

Continuous integration, continuous delivery. Your Jenkins jobs all point to repos on GitHub? Do you plan to fix every single url? Some tools actually pull stuff from GitHub. If you don't have a mirror privately somewhere, where do you push your code? How can you tell you actually own the latest of everything? Time to compare with every co-worker.

Re: Update on 1/28 service outage

#147

Post by Pharaoh2 »

Zelmor wrote: post #94
hguant wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a large part of this is that cloud hosting has allowed us to abstract those problems - reliability, disaster recovery, geographical distribution - away, and we don't really think of computers as computers anymore. It's a service or a platform or what have you, and the expectation is that it will always be there. I wouldn't say this is laziness, just a byproduct of changing how we view Internet architecture. W…

One has to keep in mind that there is no cloud. It's just someone else's computer.

Except that it is not. It redundant array of computers, if one goes down, another takes it place and all the apps running on it are migrated to the new hardware. And if the whole zone goes down, the apps are migrated to a different zone. If the whole region goes down, the apps can be migrated to a different region. The 9s are so high that you don't have to worry about hardware issues anymore, unlike when you are running your own hardware.

Re: Update on 1/28 service outage

#148

Post by forrestthewoods »

dsjoerg wrote: post #82
forrestthewoods wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And people give me shit when I argue that open source projects should include 100% of dependencies.

how far down the stack do you go? do open source projects need to include their own compiler? what would compile it?

* source code

* static libraries

* dynamic libraries

Provide compiled libs for the platforms of your choice. Preferably all three of Windows, OS X, and Linux. Users can issue pull requests if there is a platform or variant they wish to add.

Re: Update on 1/28 service outage

#149

Post by forrestthewoods »

kbenson wrote: post #55
forrestthewoods wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And people give me shit when I argue that open source projects should include 100% of dependencies.

I think that's a bit crazy as well. This is a problem if your build process happens often and requires pulling external data. Ideally, you want a way to cache that external data, and a way to force invalidation of that cache. Building , at least after the first time, should not require external access. There are security reasons for this as well.

So your proposed solution is one of the only two hard problems in computer science? That should be a solid clue that you're wrong.

"There are only two hard things in Computer Science: cache invalidation and naming things."

-- Phil Karlton

Re: Update on 1/28 service outage

#150

Post by brazzledazzle »

yeukhon wrote: post #145
chatmasta wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this is a problem worth solving, you can absolutely solve it. The easiest would be through the use of a caching proxy and/or load balancing system. The caching proxy system could be as simple as setting up a squid cache for apt. Multiple projects exist which do this already. The load balancing system would involve keeping a private mirror of every repository in the dependency graph, and falling back to the mirror…

> The easiest would be through the use of a caching proxy and/or load balancing system. Sorring if I sound like an asshole, but before we actually use the word "easiest", can you please share with us how to do all of that. It is not as easy as you claim, to be honest. Not just some /etc/hosts hijack.

They didn't say it was easy, just that it was easiest. Ostensibly comparing it to other solutions that they are aware of.
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