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What a PhD Really Means in the US National Security Community

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Re: What a PhD Really Means in the US National Security Community

#31
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I admittedly do not know much about post-baccalaureate academia. If a non-accredited school in fact does offer a PhD simply for taking classes, can you call yourself doctor? What about a non-accredited school that still requires a dissertation but 99% of those submitted are approved? I am assuming that an accredited school handing out PhDs like this would lose their accreditation but maybe that's not the case. I'm ju…

I'd say a majority of accredited schools also have very high dissertation acceptance rates. That is, you have been counseled by your adviser and other professors (a thesis committee) as to how things are going. They typically give you advice and want you to succeed. Those that do not heed this advice do not get advised to turn in a dissertation.

This is correct. When I was a Ph.D student I was told that it was very rare for someone to fail their thesis defense, because their advisor will not let them defend until they know they are going to pass. It does happen, but it takes a special kind of effort and means your advisor screwed up.

Re: What a PhD Really Means in the US National Security Community

#32
post #30
post #15

Can someone explain why "100% online" is used as a clear negative factor? What makes physical proximity to a whiteboard a better indicator of academic achievement? The ability and willingness to have a family, a full-time job, and earn an advanced degree should not be a negative signal.

So I just finished my MS in Bioinformatics at Johns Hopkins University and completed it 100% online. The program is meant for working professionals and there were also students taking classes both on-campus and online, and students taking all classes on-campus. I'm on the job hunt now, really hoping people do not frown on the degree. However, I would still look curiously at someone who received a doctorate online.

You're probably in a great position in that your institution is very well known and well regarded, obviously not 100% online, and even the program is not 100% online. Unless you mention it or you've got concurrent employment several states away, it's unlikely anyone would know you completed it online.

I'm not saying online PhDs should be the norm, or even shouldn't be questioned, but doing something for 30 hours a week over 5 years at a computer shouldn't on its face be worthless compared to doing the same thing for 60 hours a week over 2.5 years in a school building.

Re: What a PhD Really Means in the US National Security Community

#33
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I admittedly do not know much about post-baccalaureate academia. If a non-accredited school in fact does offer a PhD simply for taking classes, can you call yourself doctor? What about a non-accredited school that still requires a dissertation but 99% of those submitted are approved? I am assuming that an accredited school handing out PhDs like this would lose their accreditation but maybe that's not the case. I'm ju…

I'd say a majority of accredited schools also have very high dissertation acceptance rates. That is, you have been counseled by your adviser and other professors (a thesis committee) as to how things are going. They typically give you advice and want you to succeed. Those that do not heed this advice do not get advised to turn in a dissertation.

Duck and cover! Rant incoming! Remember: Face down, ass to the blast!

Here's a fun fact: Anyone can give out any degree they like. You can do it. I've done it; heck, I'm a Ph.D. granting institution. (And I thought the diploma turned out rather attractive.) But it'll be worth approximately the price of a piece of used printer paper.

A Ph.D. in particular consists of three different things:

* An academic degree awarded by an appropriate educational institution. This is the least important part. It's worth is dependant only on the reputation of the institution for excellence in the other two bits. Saying "I took classes for a PhD" is pretty meaningless---that has nothing to do with the other two facets, and in most well-regarded programs the classes are only there to provide background that you may have missed before getting into the program, for introducing you to the more advanced parts of the topic, and for introducing you to the faculty you may want on your committee. In fact, grades are seriously inflated. If you get less than a B, you must have done something pretty terrible to fail. Killing your professor's dog terrible. Saying "I wrote a dissertation for a PhD" is almost as bad. No one cares about the dissertation, other than that you have to write it. The only requirements from the institution are that it be formatted properly and turned in to the appropriate Dean's office before the deadline. (Something that most grad students fail at at least once.)

* A program of training for becoming a professor. You should be able to lecture without embarrassing yourself. You should be able to write an academic paper without embarrassing your co-authors. And you should be able to write grant proposals without embarrassing your employing institution. (These same set of skills are required for industrial research, in a modified form, as well as for academic jobs.) In practice, this is the most important facet, although in theory it should be second.

* And finally, the only part that really counts, although it is less important in current practice: Preparation for and a demonstration of the fact that you can conduct a successful research program that adds to the totality of human knowledge. This is what a PhD is.[1] A demonstration to whom, you may ask. (An excellent question!) You demonstrate your ability to a group of your new peers: other PhDs. Specifically, a group of faculty members and possibly other PhDs from outside the institution. Think of it like getting a black belt[2] or having a professional Go rating[3]: you get it for convincing others who already have it that you're worthy. How do you demonstrate it? You pick a topic with the aid of an advisor (more or less aid; there's many styles here), do the research working with your advisor and your committee (more or less (ahem)), produce papers describing the research, go to conferences, etc., and then write a dissertation describing your research program (that no one will ever read). Finally, you defend your research, somewhat like playing king-of-the-hill: your committee and other interested parties try to poke holes in you and your research in a public forum. That's it. When you convince them, you're done.

This is why I don't have a lot of sympathy with that Area 51 guy who said he has a PhD from MIT but that a government conspiracy is covering everything up. You cannot get through that last part without leaving many, many publicly visible footprints. Certainly not from MIT.

Likewise, you can get a PhD diploma from anyone, anywhere. But if you didn't go through that process, you may have a PhD but you don't have a PhD.

Note: I'm only familiar with the process in the US, and in STEM fields. But I think it's generally applicable. YMMV.

[1] http://matt.might.net/articles/phd-school-in-pictures/

[2] It's been a long time since I practised any martial arts. Have some salt.

[3] Likewise.

Re: What a PhD Really Means in the US National Security Community

#34
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So (and I'm guessing here because I really can't stand to click on a Vice link) that a lot of those PhDs are in bullshit fields like "national security studies" or similar?

here's the relevant image: https://news-images.vice.com/images/2016/01/27/doctors-of-do... the analysis is pretty straightforward from there.

What's the reason behind the rise of "business admin & mgmt"?

Re: What a PhD Really Means in the US National Security Community

#35
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say a majority of accredited schools also have very high dissertation acceptance rates. That is, you have been counseled by your adviser and other professors (a thesis committee) as to how things are going. They typically give you advice and want you to succeed. Those that do not heed this advice do not get advised to turn in a dissertation.

This is correct. When I was a Ph.D student I was told that it was very rare for someone to fail their thesis defense, because their advisor will not let them defend until they know they are going to pass. It does happen, but it takes a special kind of effort and means your advisor screwed up.

Oh, yeah. If you fail at your defense, your adviser is going to be permanently embarrassed. As in, not being able to show his face in the faculty lounge embarrassed. Universally mocked.

I personally had to go through the proposal phase twice and that was bad enough.

Re: What a PhD Really Means in the US National Security Community

#36
post #18
post #15

Can someone explain why "100% online" is used as a clear negative factor? What makes physical proximity to a whiteboard a better indicator of academic achievement? The ability and willingness to have a family, a full-time job, and earn an advanced degree should not be a negative signal.

Nothing inherent. But… Whiteboard schools are older and most of the currently higher reputation institutions are mostly physical. Many online-only schools are lower reputation, newer, or lower tier. Also, if the school has a cynical business model of serving students interested entirely on the piece of paper saying they attended. You could come up with similarly derogatory things to say about Pacific Island instituti…

[deleted]

Re: What a PhD Really Means in the US National Security Community

#37
post #8

I'm also intrigued, and seemingly let down, by folks with degrees in "Cyber {defense|analysis|warfare}". These degrees are always laid out on a resume with other super-sexy sounding credentials and accolades. Unfortunately, the interviews always seem to reveal a lot of (sometimes serious) technical gaps. The only reliable indicators I've come to find for technical and engineering acumen are curiosity and experience.…

There is a certain school in my area that offers a Masters in Cyber Security. We have come to learn through interviews that people with this degree know very little about practical security, reverse engineering, and exploitation. I'm sure it helps them get a sweet government job though.

Re: What a PhD Really Means in the US National Security Community

#38
post #2

To summarize: contractors can bill the federal government at higher rates for PhDs, without respect to the origin or meaning of that degree, and pass on some of it to the employee, so these employees are getting PhDs in the most expedient way. The main difference between now and the 20th Century is the explosion of on-line schools and the expansion of the "national security community."

I don't understand. Do you imply that in the US any organization can grant a PhD to someone? And/or that there is no control over the requirements to meet to get a PhD?

Re: What a PhD Really Means in the US National Security Community

#39
post #34
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

here's the relevant image: https://news-images.vice.com/images/2016/01/27/doctors-of-do... the analysis is pretty straightforward from there.

What's the reason behind the rise of "business admin & mgmt"?

My guess would be that it is easier to bullshit a diploma in "business admin & mgmt" than in law, literature, or sciences for examples.

Re: What a PhD Really Means in the US National Security Community

#40
post #15

Can someone explain why "100% online" is used as a clear negative factor? What makes physical proximity to a whiteboard a better indicator of academic achievement? The ability and willingness to have a family, a full-time job, and earn an advanced degree should not be a negative signal.

I did a Masters in Computer Science online from DePaul[1] and the teaching quality exceeded that of my undergrad time at UCLA where most Professors just read from the book to a hall of a few hundred people.

There are really two problems with the online programs. One, many low quality ones exists. As this article depicts, the government perpetuates this problems by treating a degree like a check box—doesn’t matter where the degree is from or what it is in, just that you have it, check! Two, peoples' perception of online degrees is damaged by the first point even though good programs exist.

Personally, I find the reliance on a piece of paper with words on it way over done by the civilian world. Certainly the government using them like a checkbox is too far in the other direction, but the inherent bias people give to big names schools in the States is pure snobbery. I've found the difference between good candidates from any school to be minimal, but go to some Silicon Valley companies and all you find is prestigious schools. Lazy hiring and self-selecting cultural fit.

[1]http://www.cdm.depaul.edu/academics/Pages/MSInComputerScienc...

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