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Request For Research: Basic Income

blog.ycombinator.com

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Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#721
As technology improves it is going to raise the talent bar required to be employable. Eventually it won't make sense to hire 50% of the population. A solution will be needed.

If housing, education, food, and energy were made super cheap through technology we could provide those services instead of a basic income.

Given plentiful resources what stops us from multiplying until we consume all available resources. Perhaps, if we had basic income it should only be provided once people turn 18. That way parents wouldn't keep having kids in order to get more money.

Housing: Looking to Buckminster Fuller. He wanted to have houses assembled from modular components that could be shipped. Standardization of parts would make things cheap.

Food: Robotics and biotechnology can increase yields and bring down costs. Also, aquaponics is an extremely productive system. It uses 5% of the way that traditional agriculture uses and fish consume only 1/10th the feed that cattle do. Also, duckweed (it grows like a weed) is easy to grow and feed the fish.

Education: Stop with the college model already. Technology is the answer. Look at Coursera, Udacity, Khan Academy, etc. For education that needs more hands on training bring back the apprenticeship model. Let them get their education / training for free in exchange for working for free in the field for a limited time.

Infrastructure: Public transportation needs to be a priority. Cars sit idle 95% of the time. Once we have self-driving cars they should be pooled. Just schedule a time to be picked up.

For basic income, we might want to only provide it for people age 18+. Otherwise parents will just have tons of kids in order to collect checks. That will lead to overpopulation and eventually consuming all available resources.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#722

Human maintenance is inexpensive. Give every person: - a "capsule"-style room (2m x 1m x 1m) - a set of merino wool clothes (washed weekly) - a pair of shoes - a meal a day (1500 calories, high fat, low carb) - unlimited drinkable water - a weekly body maintenance (shower, nail clipping, hair trimming, mouth cleaning, ...) - a bi-annual physical exam (weight, urine analysis, blood analysis, scan, eye exam, ...) - a p…

The idea is interesting, but to call 2m x 1m x 1m anything but a coffin or a bed-in-a-box or a closet would be disingenuous. It's certainly not a "room".

Another point: Is anything actually stopping this? If a municipal government wanted to provide all of this to its residents, or even a magnate, I don't think anything stops it.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#723
post #559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Housing is almost impossible to fix at this point. Housing is seen more as an asset class than a social requirement (although, not everyone thinks this way there are enough people with money that it doesn't matter what they think, it is an asset class). The majority of the issues you highlight are caused by the amount of capital moving into real estate and the amount of resistance to change is directly proportional t…

A thought experiment: What about building a new city in the middle of nowhere, with the sole goal of extremely reducing living costs , and designing the laws specifically for that ,including making housing costs extremely cheap?

No need for thought experiments, we have history. Company towns are good examples of this (see [Roxby Downs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roxby_Downs,_South_Australia)) as are cult headquarters. An oil rig is another example, housing costs are usually free (covered by employment), living facilities are provided free of charge and costs are usually fixed through corporate oversight and union opposition to changes. The funny thing is, most people don't want to live in places like that.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#724

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>disincentivizes work Why is this a problem? The market allocates work, the market has decided that a large and growing number of people's work is worth $0, the market is still producing enough to keep everyone happy and fed. Why should someone be incentivized to work when their work has no value? Put another way, we have made an amazing collective achievement: 100% effort from 100% of people is no longer necessary o…

> Why is this a problem? It incentivizes breeding. The more resources are freely available the more our population will grow until we reach equilibrium. Although we usually overshoot and end up with a Malthusian outcome. "Yet in all societies, even those that are most vicious, the tendency to a virtuous attachment is so strong, that there is a constant effort towards an increase of population. This constant effort as…

Here is a graph that says thats wrong:

http://www.udel.edu/johnmack/apec324/excel_lab1/xy_plot1.png

As people get more resources, they tend to have FEWER children than those with little resources.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#725
Thomas Paine wrote an excellent essay on this concept back in the day. It is worth reading:

https://www.ssa.gov/history/paine4.html

You might want to look into Georgism and Geolibertarianism as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geolibertarianism

The basic premise of all these is that land and natural resources can not be owned. If you want to use them you have to rent / buy rights to them. That rent goes into a basic fund that is then used for basic income. The basic argument is that land belongs to everyone, so everyone should get an equal share of the rent from the land.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#726

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to be a very American thing to not have banking as a basic right (or at least assumed right). Here in New Zealand, there's pretty much no restriction on getting bank accounts. It's almost unheard of to not have a bank account. Transaction fees aren't really a thing either. Most people only have to pay to withdraw money from other banks ATMs. There's no fees for bank transfers (regardless of whether it's to t…

We certainly have a long way to go here. I found it endlessly frustrating trying to get an expense card for my nanny. I wanted her to have access to a set limit of my money to pay for things for the kids but not an endless supply. I wanted it to just be there. I never found any banks that had anything even remotely like that. I ended up just getting a reloadable debit card that I have to keep topping off for her. And…

You might want to check out True Link Financial (https://www.truelinkfinancial.com/). Not sure what the current state of the agreements are but you can use it technically for this sort of thing.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#727
post #666

I'm intrigued by the idea of a basic income, but usually when people begin to talk about it, I see a certain argument presented. A simplified version of the argument is as follows: "In a free market, if a certain subset of people start making significantly more money than they used to, the demand for things that this subset of people couldn't afford before is going to increase substantially. This increase in demand w…

Look at the most basic need: food. Demand is relatively constant - you need enough to eat, and shouldn't eat too much (obviously in practice there is a certain amount of elasticity and differences in demand for different types of food). Supply of food already exceeds demand (look at food waste, supermarkets tossing out ugly produce or burning unsold items to maintain their profit margin). So - demand for food barely…

I would say shelter is as much of a basic need, and places like the bay area show that prices are rapidly increasing due to demand. Would a basic income exacerbate the problem in places that already have an issue with high housing costs?

As far as food goes, wouldn't the prices of luxury foods, like porterhouse steaks and the cost of going out to eat likely increase rapidly? I mean, no one needs to eat expensive food, but isn't the purpose of the basic income to prevent people from having to eat ramen 3 times/day?

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#728
* Provide help/advice for people making big financial decisions. For example, help them when buying/renting a house, buying a car or dealing with an expensive repair. Help students with career counseling and college decisions with an eye towards their future finances. Point out less expensive options and hacks (e.g. community college for 2 years, then transfer...consider not going to college until they are more certain what they want to do...). The startup could charge a fixed fee for advice (or maybe have a subscription model for advice at any time, a bit like Angie's list).

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#729

"Ask HN: What can startups do to increase prosperity for everyone?" I think we need a way to have a faster iteration cycle for trying sociopolitcal ideas. The problem is, its almost impossible to change the laws necessary at a governmental level in any reasonable time scale. This is exacerbated by the fact that you are inside a "monolithic legacy codebase" in which you can only afford to make minor changes over many…

"I think we need a way to have a faster iteration cycle for trying sociopolitcal ideas."

One of my personal hopes with Basic Income is that it addresses this issue by providing a safety net so that people who's livelihood relies the existence of the status quo can be liberated from the incentive to keep the status quo. For example, our government creates a Department for Homeland Security to address threats. It employs thousands of people. What happens if the threats go away and the department is no longer needed? Suddenly thousands of people are out of a job. That's thousands of people with an incentive to keep the department in business, which requires threats to our homeland security. Multiply this example across not just government institutions but private as well. People have an incentive to keep their gravy train running, even if it does irreparable harm. We need to remove this incentive so we can have faster iteration cycles, not just for socio-political ideas, but all ideas. Hopefully, a basic income can remove these perverse incentives by giving people a safety net. They're not afraid to lose their job, or move on from a shitty job, because they know they and their family won't go hungry, homeless, or without access to medical care.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#730
post #680

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Supply is limited. Always. Increase demand enough, and there MUST be an increase in "friction" somehow to limit demand to match supply; otherwise, supply runs out fast favoring "first come first served" and suffering waste while "real need" goes unfulfilled. Raising prices is the most natural and appropriate (if arguably imperfect) way to apply such friction, generally equalizing the cost value to the buyer with the…

I understand the argument. What I'm asking about, is whether or not it would negate the positive effects of a basic income. The people who argue against the idea of a basic income often use this argument as evidence that it can't possibly work.

The whole point of basic income is to reduce the friction for obtaining necessities ... which is increasing demand for a limited supply. Demand increases, supply either exhausts rapidly or finds some other way of increasing friction - usually by increasing prices, stabilizing right about back where we started but with higher prices.

In addition, money itself is of limited supply. Reducing the friction for obtaining money results in increased demand for that limited supply of money. Demand increases, supply either exhausts rapidly[1] or finds some other way of increasing friction - usually by increasing prices (inflation), stabilizing right about back where we started but with higher prices.

[1] - "The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money."

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