Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Request For Research: Basic Income

blog.ycombinator.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

561–570 of 1001 posts

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#561

Post by oconnor663 »

rewqfdsa wrote: post #370
samstave wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need to figure out an alternate way of living for people who are intellectually incapable of contributing to a modern technologically advanced economy. A basic income is a good start. There is another dimension to this problem though; national borders and status. There are a TON of really smart mexicans and other immigrants of every nation who are stuck into an effective caste system based on their status. In fact…

We already have programs for granting preferential immigration to high-skilled foreigners. Every advanced country does. Unrestrained immigration is incompatible with a welfare state. Which would you rather have?

There's not necessarily a conflict between the two. One middle road would be to maintain the welfare state, but to add a rule saying that only people whose ancestors were citizens before year X could receive welfare.

The result would be extremely visibly racist, but I think the right response to that is to understand that existing immigration laws are in effect equally racist. It's the visibility that would change, rather than the degree.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#562

Post by unimpressive »

alexmat wrote: post #212
superuser2 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>disincentivizes work Why is this a problem? The market allocates work, the market has decided that a large and growing number of people's work is worth $0, the market is still producing enough to keep everyone happy and fed. Why should someone be incentivized to work when their work has no value? Put another way, we have made an amazing collective achievement: 100% effort from 100% of people is no longer necessary o…

> Why is this a problem? It incentivizes breeding. The more resources are freely available the more our population will grow until we reach equilibrium. Although we usually overshoot and end up with a Malthusian outcome. "Yet in all societies, even those that are most vicious, the tendency to a virtuous attachment is so strong, that there is a constant effort towards an increase of population. This constant effort as…

>It incentivizes breeding.

It's usually considered bad form to point this out, but there is no divine mandate that makes human breeding a process beyond the control of human societies.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#563

Post by nawitus »

RankingMember wrote: post #118

I'm curious to see how Finland's basic income system turns out. I think doing so would drop the omnipresent fear of being destitute and homeless, which would do a lot to improve mental health.

Finland hasn't decided to switch to basic income system. It's been reported that there will be basic income trial, but even that's not certain.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#565

Post by kasey_junk »

toomanybeersies wrote: post #541
egypturnash wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Access to money transfer as a basic human right" is a brilliant way to reframe the conversation around financial services. I'm gonna start talking about transaction fees from that perspective now. And yeah, good luck extracting the banks from the profit-making niches they've carved out in that process. They will fight that to their last breath.

It seems to be a very American thing to not have banking as a basic right (or at least assumed right). Here in New Zealand, there's pretty much no restriction on getting bank accounts. It's almost unheard of to not have a bank account. Transaction fees aren't really a thing either. Most people only have to pay to withdraw money from other banks ATMs. There's no fees for bank transfers (regardless of whether it's to t…

Please note I'm not trying to belittle your answer, but New Zealand is a very small place. In the US there are Credit Unions (the smaller, less popular non-profit bank alternatives in the US) that have more members than the entire population of NZ.

If you were to only bank amongst one Credit Union here in the states you'd see similar levels of service to what you mention (other than chip & pin which is only recently deployed).

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#566

Post by droffel »

logfromblammo wrote: post #514
taurath wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the basic tenants and studies that have called basic income into the forefront are to be believed (and the actual spectre of central state control that people are afraid of in some circumstances is real, and it is), the best way to benefit people in need is to give them cash. Most of the time, people spend it on things they need. If they don't, they are either suffering from a mental or addiction issue and need tr…

But on a grand scale, where everybody knows that everyone is getting the same amount of free money, the market adjusts accordingly, within minutes. You can give 20 people $100 each to spend as they see fit, and it wouldn't affect the price of a Happy Meal. But if you give 100000 people $100 each, you can bet that the price of that food is going up a bit, just because more people can more easily afford a higher price.…

This is true, however, at a point in time where we are desperately attempting to induce inflation in anything but assets (which was the end result of QE), perhaps "helicopter money" in the form of a UBI would end up stimulating more demand than QE did. Sure, we would experience some mild inflation in basic goods prices, but in net, I think it would be a benefit. Isn't the Fed trying to stimulate inflation anyways, and utterly failing?

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#567

Post by Mahn »

alexmat wrote: post #182
mozumder wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is key. No one has ever said "I'm going to stop making money because I have $1."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_utility At $1 the second dollar is useful, at $50,000, I'm good for the year and will not pursue additional dollars. Replace $50,000 with whatever amount you need to feel content.

But that's different from basic income. The idea with basic income is that you shouldn't fear dying of hunger and being homeless because you literally can't pay, but at the same time you will have to work if you want that plasma TV and iPhone on top of your basic survival money. Basic income should give everyone just about enough to survive and pay rent, but not enough to have a high quality life that most people want.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#568

Post by samsolomon »

tptacek wrote: post #269
avip wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a more trivial alternative to "equally credible alternatives to university" - just ban education based discrimination. Same way US so nicely enforces regarding race or martial status. Make it illegal to ask. Simple change with 100% guaranteed positive outcome.

Whether I agree or not with this (mostly, I don't), it fails my test of "being something a startup can do". Whereas a startup that had a really good solution for inculcating the kinds of skills and values white-collar employers are looking for could outcompete universities instead of legislating them out of the picture. When people discuss the value signaling provided by elite universities, their first example is usu…

If getting into an elite university is the signal. Why not apply to elite universities (or the best that the student can get into) and then shrug admissions when accepted?

The student can then turn around to some great companies and say "I got into X university, but am thinking of waiting a semester and want to learn a bit about your business. Would you be open to some sort of internship?"

I don't know if that is the correct solution though. Much of what I learned came from being at school, but not necessarily the classroom. I learned a ton about alcohol and drugs and sex and other things that simply being in an environment with so many of my peers produced. Additionally, I'm a designer. If I weren't an editor for the school paper, I'd never have picked up a copy of creative suite and probably would be working a miserable corporate job somewhere otherwise.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#569

Post by jgord »

jngreenlee wrote: post #188

Teaching people to control their costs, ala "mr money mustache" makes sense. I personally believe that you can control your costs and raise a family on $30k/yr if you are educated on the bad choices not to make...several cars on loans, larger houses than needed, etc...

I genuinely don't know how a couple could raise one child on $30k/yr - is rent cheap where you live ?

If you had have asked me what a couple needs to raise a kid in the US, I would have guessed 80k.. maybe 60k if they are very careful with money management, as you suggest.

I'm actually being sincere.. but where I live rent is very high, so perhaps that explains the vast difference ?

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#570

Post by vectorjohn »

crazypyro wrote: post #540
fijal wrote: post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

College in Poland is free and there are options for very limited stipends which can sustain you (albeit on a poverty level). That did lift me from a poor, but educated, family into the world of computer software and a relatively successful career it seems. As it did for countless of my peers. Please don't discount free education as "not changing much", in the US I would be probably working at Mc Donalds or dealing cr…

That last sentence is almost assuredly a massive hyperbole. The US is not that bad...

Largest non-violent per capita prison population in the world? Not that much hyperbole.
Post reply on HN