Request For Research: Basic Income • Hacker News Board

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#551

Post by simplify » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 10:19 PM UTC

cookiecaper wrote: post #455

jacalata wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Joke answer: totally, if you're going to play seriously! Serious answer: besides the ongoing need of the 'elite' for childcare, most proponents of basic income argue that people would not just play video games all day. If you think about everything you or other people might want to do in your free time today, even - how many of those would you prefer to do without simultaneously minding children?

>Serious answer: besides the ongoing need of the 'elite' for childcare, most proponents of basic income argue that people would not just play video games all day. Unfortunately this is not the case. What do students who live on student loans and/or parental stipend as a "basic income" do? You can expect more of that when the government becomes the parent doling out the stipend.

And why is this bad? At least they get the fair chance to make something of themselves, regardless of their social / economic backgrounds. Too many don't get that chance.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#552

Post by unclebucknasty » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 10:19 PM UTC

termain wrote: post #501

arohner wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. I'll also add the 4-year education is incredibly inefficient, in terms of skills added over time. Even in highly technical STEM degrees, you probably don't need 4 years "full time" to gain all of the skills an employer expects a fresh-out-of-school STEM graduate to have. The same is even more true of less technical degrees.

"Yes. I'll also add the 4-year education is incredibly inefficient, in terms of skills added over time" I'm uncomfortable with the idea that a university degree is entirely about workforce skills.

>I'm uncomfortable with the idea that a university degree is entirely about workforce skills.

But, It's a rational view. The soaring cost of college is what makes it largely an economic proposition for many these days.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#553

Post by astockwell » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 10:19 PM UTC

I think a critical piece of Basic Income being successful is being able to count on it UNTIL DEATH. Unless folks can trust 100% that when they grow old (and unable to be as productive) they can still live "without the fear of not being able to eat", they're not going to buy into the system in the way that everyone hopes they will.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#554

Post by metaphorm » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 10:20 PM UTC

sama asked:

> Ask HN: What can startups do to increase prosperity for everyone?

good financial services for very poor people in developed countries.

the basic financial services that middle class and wealthy people have access to such as checking accounts, savings accounts, retail brokerages for purchasing investing vehicles (stocks, bonds, etfs, etc.), access to consumer credit that does not have usurious rates and predatory practices, tax filing assistance, direct deposit of paychecks, automated scheduled bill payments, access to in-network or no-fee ATMs, ability to build up good credit history and have a high FICA score, etc.

all of these things that the middle and upper classes totally take for grant as basic infrastructure necessary for modern life are things that very poor people are almost completely shut out of. this is a HUGE driver of persistent poverty in already poor communities. this is one of the things that makes climbing up out of poverty almost impossible for so many people.

a startup attempting to solve these problems would have to be willing to experiment with totally new business models that do not directly rely on exploitation of the customers to generate profits. it might be a lower margin business than, for example, commercial banking. it would be a great social good though, and it might even be possible to make a profitable business out of it too.

edit: expanding on my point

an important component of sama's query is "increase prosperity for everyone". how does providing financial services for the very poor help everyone? simple: it increases demand at the base of the economy. very poor people have almost no discretionary spending money and often end up as net drains on local economies, taking in money from government assistance programs while not contributing back to the economic growth of their communities.

if the poorest people become less poor they begin to buy things with their newly available discretionary spending money.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#555

Post by jsonne » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 10:21 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #170

Things that would help everyone, regardless of income, without depending on a radical restructuring of entitlement spending, that seem like things startups could actually do: * Equally credible alternatives to university education for professions that don't involve students shouldering $100k-$200k in debt based on decisions they have to make when they're 18 years old. * Empirical, blinded, skills-assessment based tur…

* Empirical, blinded, skills-assessment based turnkey hiring solutions that outperform interviews for non-technology roles like marketing, purchasing, &c, so that people who avail themselves of alternatives to universities can get good jobs regardless of social signals.

Marketing desperately needs some sort of empirical way of hiring. Unfortunately, I think you'll find that half the people currently in marketing roles though would lose their jobs.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#556

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 10:22 PM UTC

surfmike wrote: post #97

"What can startups do to increase prosperity for everyone?" I think cheap quality housing is a huge area that would help everyone. Taxes and housing together eat up the vast majority of the earnings most people make. What could make a difference? - applying technology to building denser housing. for example, imagine cheap robotic excavation, so every house and building could bury all their parking lots and long term…

[deleted]

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#557

Post by simonh » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 10:25 PM UTC

honksillet wrote: post #218

simonh wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the cost of a lot of basic goods and services would fall. Employers would only need to offer relatively modest wages because the marginal value of those wages would be so much higher. This could drive down labour costs without driving down net pay for low wage workers. Basically a worker on $1,000/Mo now might be on $600/mo basic income and $600 wage after (fantasy numbers). This could make low wage workers m…

This is exactly wrong. The cost basic goods would increase. Basic Income would immediately have an inflationary effect as the money supply for these good would be expanded drastically. The Employer would not see as much benefit as you'd think as presumably he would be amongst the class of people/entities (including the middle class, upper class, and corporation) which would be paying for this indirectly in the form o…

I don't suppose it's guaranteed that the overall incomes of the lowest earners would actualy increase though. Maybe they would, but it's possible wages will fall and rents will rise to cancel that out.

You may well be right about employers. Basic income isn't going to wish away all the problems of the poor. The main benefits are likely to be a simpler, fairer and more efficient benefits system and more opportunities for employment.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#558

Post by jack-r-abbit » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 10:28 PM UTC

toomanybeersies wrote: post #541

egypturnash wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Access to money transfer as a basic human right" is a brilliant way to reframe the conversation around financial services. I'm gonna start talking about transaction fees from that perspective now. And yeah, good luck extracting the banks from the profit-making niches they've carved out in that process. They will fight that to their last breath.

It seems to be a very American thing to not have banking as a basic right (or at least assumed right). Here in New Zealand, there's pretty much no restriction on getting bank accounts. It's almost unheard of to not have a bank account. Transaction fees aren't really a thing either. Most people only have to pay to withdraw money from other banks ATMs. There's no fees for bank transfers (regardless of whether it's to t…

We certainly have a long way to go here. I found it endlessly frustrating trying to get an expense card for my nanny. I wanted her to have access to a set limit of my money to pay for things for the kids but not an endless supply. I wanted it to just be there. I never found any banks that had anything even remotely like that. I ended up just getting a reloadable debit card that I have to keep topping off for her. And the biggest kicker... it takes 5 business days for the money to show up on it. How does it take 5 days to move some 1s and 0s from this account to that account? And why "business days?" Do their computers not work on the weekends? Crazy and frustrating.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#559

Post by petra » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 10:30 PM UTC

Tsagadai wrote: post #530

surfmike wrote: post #97

"What can startups do to increase prosperity for everyone?" I think cheap quality housing is a huge area that would help everyone. Taxes and housing together eat up the vast majority of the earnings most people make. What could make a difference? - applying technology to building denser housing. for example, imagine cheap robotic excavation, so every house and building could bury all their parking lots and long term…

Housing is almost impossible to fix at this point. Housing is seen more as an asset class than a social requirement (although, not everyone thinks this way there are enough people with money that it doesn't matter what they think, it is an asset class). The majority of the issues you highlight are caused by the amount of capital moving into real estate and the amount of resistance to change is directly proportional t…

A thought experiment: What about building a new city in the middle of nowhere, with the sole goal of extremely reducing living costs , and designing the laws specifically for that ,including making housing costs extremely cheap?

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#560

Post by wstrange » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 10:31 PM UTC

marknutter wrote: post #548

If you want to see basic income in action, look no further than the various Native American tribes who operate casinos throughout the country. The results are not pretty [1]. [1] http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21639547-how-cas...

Perhaps there are other social factors at play.