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Request For Research: Basic Income

blog.ycombinator.com

471–480 of 1001 posts

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#471
"We’re looking for one researcher who wants to work full-time... who are driven and talented but come from poor backgrounds." (please read the entire paragraph to understand the context of this)

The combination of hiring researchers that come from poor background with the author's stated belief that a basic income would likely be a good thing makes the entire set up seem very biased.

I like the idea of promoting research into the subject but I don't think this is the right way to do economic research.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#472
post #350
post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an interesting list... To me, improving provision of medical service and education definitely seems possible, as a lot of current problems are due to the fairly artificial constraints in the system. Removing them, or going around them, can really do a lot. Things like child care and finance are not as obvious to me though: these are already competitive industries, with very price-sensitive clients too, and (IMO)…

Childcare is dying for some automation. 1 person can care for ~3 very young children( Worse, these are all minimum numbers. You need extra staff to cover someone being sick, or turn people away.

The regulatory bar for childcare is absurdly high, and I can't imagine how much of it serves a constructive purpose (source: my sister, who is a teacher, once looked into opening a daycare center). But like the "war on terror", it's regulation we can't get rid of because nobody wants to be the guy who made kids less safe.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why shouldn't basic income be $36,000?

Why shouldn't basic income be $100,000? Most napkin math proposal for basic income are between $10,000 and $15,000. That's quite hard to make work but it's maaaayyybbeee posssibly achievable. It's at the outer limit of doable but meaningful. In the US 36k per person would account for 66% of GDP. It'd be 85% of GDP in France. These are not viable figures.

It shouldn't be $100k because that exceeds mean income, and we don't have strong evidence about how much BI improves productivity.

I think the reason most proposals are well below the mean is that we prefer a modest effective intervention, and the desired effect is to remove the hardship of poverty, not to achieve perfect income equality.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#474
I'm not sure providing basic income for a group of people for 5 years is a valid experiment. That group would still need to improve themselves because their money will be gone in 5 years, and they would then need to have built enough of their lives to get a job or be self-financed. The other flaw is that they will be a unique group, not part of a population who all gets the same basic income, so their lifestyle choices will be dictated personally, whereas if everyone had basic income, culture itself would have more impact on choices.

It sounds like a great idea to spend time and energy researching this... I just don't think the description as posted is going to hit the mark.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#475
post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Define poorest. The great society handed out lots of free cash in the 60s and 70s, and it didn't work.

Define great society. If anything, parent's comment is more clear to me than yours. Both are [citation needed], but parent's hints at more detail.

"great society" is not being used a rhetorical device to refer to a particular society; it is (I am reasonably sure) referring to the "Great Society" program in the United States [0] in the mid-60s. I don't know enough to address the claims in the GP, but they did frame their argument, at least.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Society

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#476

The problem with basic income is that people need purpose, not charity. Look at the success of programs in Africa that give people the ability to make a living, not a bag of rice. One particularly moving story was about a group that got foot-powered water pumps into the hands of subsistence farmers, who subsequently were able to send their kids to school. At one point, the core purpose of monetary policy and central…

> "The problem with basic income is that people need purpose, not charity."

When most of your energy is spent on survival, the energy left to follow a greater purpose is drastically reduced. Providing the basics as a human right frees people to pursue goals beyond the basics. The cultural element is important too (the goals you set will be influenced by the society you live in), but let's tackle the survival issue first.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know enough about Denmark to evaluate your comment, but stipulate that it's true, and then, if you'd like to reframe my list as "a list of things startups could do to use the market to make the US more like Denmark", I would have no objection.

Sure but Basic Income is about something else, something bigger. It's about solving the fact that everyone is going to be out of a job. If you only go to it by thinking you have to find a solution to the current workforce and income distribution problem then you are missing the real problem. Denmark pays a lot in taxes, free healthcare, free education (even university), students get paid to study, redistribute wealth…

I'm not interested in litigating basic income; I'm confining my responses to the terms 'sama set up: "things startups can conceivably do". That doesn't mean I believe startups are the most important vector in improving public policy.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#478
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happens now if everybody is jobless, does the jobless still feel bad about it?

Based on what happens in remote communities here in Australia the result is not pretty. We basically have a basic income here in Australia via our welfare system. What we have found when everyone is jobless is there are huge levels of drug use, domestic violence, child abuse and general criminality. Other than this it works quite well.

I think the packaging is incredibly important -

negative income / social welfare are packaged in a way that telegraphs dependency and low self-worth.

[ I would also be really interested in seeing an economic analysis of how much money and time is spent on administering social welfare ]

Basic income needs to be marketed as a positive way : here's some money - it is your share of the basic wealth from the land/resources and the benefits of our technology to the country - do something useful with it.

[ I also wonder how many of those 'lazy-dole-bludgers' now on social welfare would have a better sense of self-worth, and actually get off their arse and do something useful if we didn't make it so clear to them they were total failures from school age ]

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#479
I am all for research into basic income -- and in fact a big believer. However I take a HUGE issue with reading too much into the viability of the system based upon research done on small sample sizes: "Our idea is to give a basic income to a group of people in the US for a 5 year period"

There is emergent behavior that arises in the economy as a function of the number of people given a stipend or living wage. For profit colleges are the perfect example. If grants are given to a small set of people the scale of demand necessary for such businesses to exist is insufficient. Crank up the number of people and a new market is created that allows for the existence of predatory "for profit" college businesses that take advantage of funds that would have otherwise been allocated properly.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#480
post #432
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People value money they earn more highly than money they are given (, about twice as much from what I've read). In addition to that, many people get a sense of purpose from their work, as they feel they are contributing to something, and through a sense of fellow-feeling with their fellow workers, even though they may find it stressful and/or tedious.

There are some forms of work that are useful to society and rewarding, which don't pay enough to live on - volunteering in a hospice or school for example. In this case the person doing the work might both derive self-worth and view the basic income as being 'earned' .. and hence value it as much as a traditional salary [ and not 'waste' it ]. I think basic income could fill a lot of little niches where the market ec…

I was a homemaker for two decades. I did lots of volunteer work. I strongly disagree with you.

You should Google "emotional labor metafilter". A lot of "caring" work has traditionally been done by women and we are expected to do it for free, out of the goodness of our hearts. If we expect to get compensated for it, we are taken to task as harpies, gold digging whores, etc.

I was one of the top three students of my graduating class. I have done many things that enhanced the lives of other people. I have struggled with trying to figure out how to monetize my work. The main thing I need is work that pays adequately and doesn't keep me sick. A lot of people who have benefitted from my volunteer work, public writing, etc. are offended and outraged that I desire financial compensation.

I have been homeless for just over four years. The people who expect me to do nice things for them because I "care" generally do not give a damn about that. Plenty of people have made it abundantly clear that I should shut the fuck up about how poor I am and how hard my life is. They seem to think that telling people I am homeless amounts to trying to panhandle them.

I am pretty pissed off about it because I am not a beggar. I have only ever asked for help in trying to figure out how to turn the work I do that benefits others into an income source for me. The idea that I deserve compensation gets pissed on, often by the very people who seem to think I am after their money as a beggar.

We need to pay for these jobs if we want them done. No one should be expected to live in poverty on an allotment of Basic Income while taking care of others. It is a shitty, shitty expectation.

"Fuck you, pay me" should apply equally to the kinds of work you describe. If society NEEDS this work done and it doesn't pay adequately when handled by the private sector, then create a government service. This is why fire and police are public goods, not private sector services.

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