Request For Research: Basic Income • Hacker News Board

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#461

Post by clemensley » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 9:37 PM UTC

corin_ wrote: post #348

clemensley wrote: post #202

Honestly, I don't think that people sitting around is the problem with basic income - it's funding it. Say you are going to give each of the 320M inhabitants of the US $10k per year (that's about the poverty threshold). That would be a cost of $3.2 Trillion per year, or about 50% the total government revenue (federal, state, & local combined). I just cannot see a future where the US raises taxes by a number that anyw…

Keep in mind that some of the additional tax would be funded by the basic income received by the rich (i.e. some people would get the $10k and then pay back $10k more in tax than they would have before, thus not gaining or losing - and of course some people will fall on either side of that middle line). Also, some social benefits costs would be cut, and in theory possibly also save money on currently-needed beaurocra…

Fair point.

It seems that in 2009, 13.2% of americans have been living under the poverty threshold. Lets say that they make 50% of the poverty threshold on average (don't know the number). That would be an increase of 3.3% of government revenue. Plus the savings on bureaucracy you point to. Does not sound like the most libertarian plan ever, but it's certainly not unrealistic.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#462

Post by jwomers » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 9:37 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #170

Things that would help everyone, regardless of income, without depending on a radical restructuring of entitlement spending, that seem like things startups could actually do: * Equally credible alternatives to university education for professions that don't involve students shouldering $100k-$200k in debt based on decisions they have to make when they're 18 years old. * Empirical, blinded, skills-assessment based tur…

This is a seriously great list of high-impact possibilities - I especially like the alternatives to university. Your thinking is clear and logical. +1

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#463

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 9:37 PM UTC

FrankyHollywood wrote: post #424

A lot of people see problems in getting basic income funded. But is there is a simple solution :) Generate the money, just print it! Everyone on earth will get an equal quantity of money, every month. Now this money can be used in two different ways. 1) Buy natural resources 2) Buy services This distinction is important: When somebody provides a service, like fixing your bike he gets money and can keep it. When you b…

[deleted]

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#464

Post by TulliusCicero » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 9:38 PM UTC

> I think basic income is important to do but decreasing the cost of living is a critical component as well. I'd be very interested to hear thoughts from the HN community about what we could be doing here.

Increasing rents in particular metros (the ones where the good jobs are at) is the most obvious and solvable cost of living problem we have right now. Pretty much all we need is to just permit more housing to be built, in the form of radically loosening zoning regulations that block dense housing. There, done.

Housing in the bay area would still be somewhat expensive with more liberal guidelines on housing, but nowhere close to where it is right now.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#465

Post by ascorbic » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 9:38 PM UTC

TrevorJ wrote: post #17

I wonder what basic income would do to cost of living? If everyone ends up with x amount of guaranteed income, does the cost of living eventually rise by the same amount across the board and basically negate it? It seems like rent-seeking behavior would come in to play here.

The money for the basic income comes from taxation. Even though everyone would get it, higher tax rates on people with middle or high incomes would mean they were no better off, or worse off. This isn't supposed to be a way to make everyone $x per month better off, it's a way to change incentives and replace welfare.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#466

Post by vkou » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 9:38 PM UTC

jl6 wrote: post #394

Additionally, I wonder if basic income can be effective while there are still shitty jobs. Right now, somebody has to clean the toilets, because there aren't yet robots that can do it cheaply enough. If you introduce basic income so that nobody has to do the shitty job, nobody will do it. But one day there will be robots that can clean the toilets, and then there will be no shitty jobs left to do - and perhaps only t…

Which, according to the basic principle of economics, will cause pay for the shitty, but necessary jobs to rise.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#467

Post by tptacek » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 9:39 PM UTC

panglott wrote: post #456

Retric wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Childcare is dying for some automation. 1 person can care for ~3 very young children( Worse, these are all minimum numbers. You need extra staff to cover someone being sick, or turn people away.

Why is child care something that should be automated? Doesn't it make sense to spend a lot of high-value human attention on small children? Humans are not a product. They are an end in themselves. It's like trying to automate your friends or your spouse.

No, it doesn't make sense to spend lots of high-value human attention on small children. For a pretty huge part of the day, small children are better off exploring the world on their own, and making social connections on their own. What's needed is safety, comfort, and some degree of monitored structure.

Again: once your kid turns 5 (4, if you're rich and you send your kid to private all-day preschool), you're generally sending them somewhere where one adult will watch as many as 30 kids concurrently, all the while educating them to the point where they can creditably pass standardized tests. That's a harder job than just making sure kids are happy and engaged, and yet we pay far less for it than we do for child care.

Child care is a huge part of why people get crappier jobs than they might. You can't go back to school if you have no savings and need to pay at least $15/hr for child care; in fact, you can't even speculatively take a lower-paying job for career advancement if that job doesn't pay enough to offset child care.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#468

Post by nostromo » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 9:39 PM UTC

I would love to see a GiveDirectly (https://www.givedirectly.org/) trial in first-world countries.

Take a few people that would qualify for various public assistance programs (reduced housing costs, food stamps, disability, welfare) and instead just give them that money in one big annual lump sum.

My hunch is that this would be more cost effective, particularly given the much lower cost of administrating cash payouts vs restricted use programs. But it's also possible all of the money would just go to drugs and alcohol. It'd be a fascinating study.

(I realize this isn't basic income, as basic income is not means-tested -- but it'd be a great first step in that direction.)

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#469

Post by jacquesm » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 9:39 PM UTC

sama wrote: post #213

surfmike wrote: post #97

"What can startups do to increase prosperity for everyone?" I think cheap quality housing is a huge area that would help everyone. Taxes and housing together eat up the vast majority of the earnings most people make. What could make a difference? - applying technology to building denser housing. for example, imagine cheap robotic excavation, so every house and building could bury all their parking lots and long term…

Yes--driving down the cost of housing is one of the things I think about the most. It seems so critical to the whole equation.

To drive down the cost of housing you'd have to drive down the cost of land in places where lots of people want to live. The house is the smaller part of that equation, unless you're looking at the third world and there a whole pile of other problems come in to play.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#470

Post by stites » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 9:39 PM UTC

refrigerator wrote: post #25

Might be of interest: http://www.givedirectly.org

Especially check out some of the research they have done which addresses some of the questions in this thread: https://www.givedirectly.org/research-at-give-directly

direct link to paper: https://www.princeton.edu/~joha/publications/Haushofer_Shapi...