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Request For Research: Basic Income

blog.ycombinator.com

421–430 of 1001 posts

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#421
post #391

I can't take this seriously. >(Questions about how a program like this would affect overall cost of living are beyond our scope, but obviously important.) No, that's not just "obviously important". It's practically the ONLY thing that's important. If basic income raises the cost of living to the point where it negates the effect of having it, then basic income is meaningless. Here's your study. 1) Bring one piece of…

[deleted]

>The times that BI has been tried have not had the outcome you describe

You'll need to make a citation for that claim.

>After that, if they want a nice car, a nicer house, they would have to work

In your second paragraph they only need to work in order to have nice things, in the next paragraph there is no work to be had, so basic income is needed to eat...

"The times that BI has been tried, people still work."

vs.

"You need a job to eat -- it's just a shame that there are no jobs anymore."

You're in open contradiction of yourself.

EDIT - To add, I think you misunderstood my analogy. It's not that the kids are suddenly lazy and don't want to work, it's that one more piece of candy isn't that inciting. You're going to have to break out another bag of candy before they're even paying attention to you.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basic Income is probably the most efficient way of giving everybody food & shelter. Giving everybody food and shelter through standard government processes would probably cost way more than $10K/year.

10k/year isn't going to get you far with food and shelter in all but the lowest cost of living areas.

Yes, it pretty much assumes shared housing.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#423

Things that would help everyone, regardless of income, without depending on a radical restructuring of entitlement spending, that seem like things startups could actually do: * Equally credible alternatives to university education for professions that don't involve students shouldering $100k-$200k in debt based on decisions they have to make when they're 18 years old. * Empirical, blinded, skills-assessment based tur…

on your last point, I've wondered if it would be within the scope of 18F or the US Digital Service to create a local.gov site/platform that is a repository for all local government information and vector for engagement. Figuring out who all the locally elected officials are and what they are supposed to do is nearly an impossible task.

That's probably outside 18F's scope, as they are cost recoverable and must be hired by a federal agency. So getting that done would require convincing a federal agency to spend the money to hire 18F to build the platform. USDS could do it if it were a presidential priority, but while creating a one-time snapshot of that list would already be an incredibly huge task, actually keeping it updated would be very difficult just because of all the points of contact involved. Especially if it went down to the city council and school board level, which would certainly be useful to local communities, but really difficult to keep track of on a national level.

*I'm an 18F employee speaking in a personal capacity.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#424
A lot of people see problems in getting basic income funded. But is there is a simple solution :)

Generate the money, just print it!

Everyone on earth will get an equal quantity of money, every month.

Now this money can be used in two different ways.

1) Buy natural resources

2) Buy services

This distinction is important:

When somebody provides a service, like fixing your bike he gets money and can keep it.

When you buy a 'natural resource', like wood, corn or oil the money must be destroyed.

What I hope to accomplish this way is several things:

- Equal chances for everyone, everybody can buy the same amount of natural resources on earth.

- Destroying the money keeps the total money amount balanced. Natural resources are limited so a limited amount of money seems fair.

- The system makes adding value to the world profitable. You are stimulated to be creative and do something for someone else!

- Perhaps the total amount of money will increase. This is not bad perse, rich people will get less rich. But everyone always has enough money to live a good life.

This is the basic idea. How this should work in practice needs lots of work, but I'm really curious how you guys think about this!

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have to clearly start differentiating between "work", and a "job". You can work hard at something which provides immense satisfaction and personal value (perhaps even value to others). But a job is strictly something you do in exchange for money. A job doesn't necessarily contribute to your self-worth. Meaningful work, does.

Way to miss the point. If you don't have a job, even if you have some kind of meaningful work or hobby on the side, your self-worth will still suffers from that.

How do you know that?

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#426

Things that would help everyone, regardless of income, without depending on a radical restructuring of entitlement spending, that seem like things startups could actually do: * Equally credible alternatives to university education for professions that don't involve students shouldering $100k-$200k in debt based on decisions they have to make when they're 18 years old. * Empirical, blinded, skills-assessment based tur…

Awesome. A couple points: Alternatives to patient-present doctor-mediated health care to cover the 80% case in which doctors are expensive overkill; some combination of telemedicine and nurse-practitioners. We have police departments and we have fire departments. We should have "nurse departments" that are clinics but much more structured as are fire and PD services for each given area. (I know there is a grey versio…

> insuring child care

What do you mean by this?

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#427
post #5

There's a very relevant section in this book ( The Second Machine Age: Work, Progress, and Prosperity in a Time of Brilliant Technologies - http://amzn.to/1KFJ1Iu ) , that I just read last night: > "His view is strongly supported by the work of economist Andrew Oswald, who found that joblessness lasting six months or longer harms feelings of well-being and other measures of mental health about as much as the death of…

Oswald's research was published on 2004. Andrew Oswald is a British economist who earnestly tried to study happiness with statistics, and government data. The study tries to corollate government data, excludes detailed information on black wages, and tries to draw conclusions based an statistics, and questionable government data.

What jumped out of the paper(around page 25) was that Europeans have been just Happy! Why are first 12 members of the EU Happy over time? I'll let you speculate.

Now to entitled--usually white upper class men--who have been telling the poor what to do since biblical times. Dummy up! I've had seen too many people die early because they became homeless.

I think what most of these researchers fail to comprehend is the difference between poor, and poor with no safety net. No parents. No friends couch to crash on. Just the inviting, wet thicket of Scotch Broom to crawl into, and being woken by gently nudge of a police officers' latest extension of their authoritarian arm. Real poverty is homelessness. It's ugly. I don't know why we are even debating someting, like a minimum income, at this point in time. I have seen friends die way too early because of their homeless stints. It seems by the time they get a little help, it's too late. They just die early?

I'm not going to list off my gripes about making a living in this enviorment, but a lot of us tech workers are very succeptable to being homeless. At least half the guys I know without roofs over their heads were former Programmers. At one time they we happy, and young, banging away with Fortran.

(Willie Brown is actually the first one I heard, wondering out loud, exactly what we are going to do with all the future homeless tech workers.

They now sit in coffee shops fiddling with our discarded toys.

Basic income at this point--yes. I actually think if some of these poor people were given a little bit of help, they might just start business, and who know where it will end. There's only one benefit from being poor; some of you see the world a different way.

We have never had a basic income in the United States. Let's give it a shot? I look around at what's happening in the United States, and I don't like the trend. It was better in the past.

(Yea, what if it gets worse. Go back to this wonderful system of privileged elitism. I won't be back, so any comments--I will miss out on. Oh, yea as to sitting idle--the subsided poor I know, are busy. See the world is funny place. Even if you get the couch in the subsidized house, you are expected to do/fix all sorts of things, including being a amature psychiatrist. The poor always pay in some way. Think about it. Did you really ever get a completely free lunch, outside of maybe grade school, or when you were young and pretty. Pretty is gender neutral.)

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#428
post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I often have the same inclination of thought with regards to university education and government-guaranteed student loans. If I'm a university executive, and I know that the average student can afford $X, and I know the average student can also receive a guaranteed $Y in student loans... Why would I not set my price at $(X+Y) and take the full rent that I can?

Only works if every university does the same thing.

Can you explain why "price creep" will not occur, i.e., universities increasing their prices with small amounts (say $10 a year), so that eventually, all of them will end up at (X+Y)$ ?

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#429

Things that would help everyone, regardless of income, without depending on a radical restructuring of entitlement spending, that seem like things startups could actually do: * Equally credible alternatives to university education for professions that don't involve students shouldering $100k-$200k in debt based on decisions they have to make when they're 18 years old. * Empirical, blinded, skills-assessment based tur…

Equally credible alternatives to university education for professions that don't involve students shouldering $100k-$200k in debt based on decisions they have to make when they're 18 years old. Why not just free university education for people who have the prerequisite academic qualifications?

The same entity should not be responsible for both education and certification/credentialing. It creates a serious conflict-of-interest, and a better system would be to separate the entities that grant degrees from entities that sell education. This is especially important if the purchaser of the education is a third-party like a government or a bank, and not the actual student. (i.e., when the education is "free")

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#430

A lot of people see problems in getting basic income funded. But is there is a simple solution :) Generate the money, just print it! Everyone on earth will get an equal quantity of money, every month. Now this money can be used in two different ways. 1) Buy natural resources 2) Buy services This distinction is important: When somebody provides a service, like fixing your bike he gets money and can keep it. When you b…

Doesn't this mean the person selling natural resources to you get shafted?
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