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Request For Research: Basic Income

blog.ycombinator.com

251–260 of 1001 posts

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#251

Interesting project, but personally I would be more interested to see the funding of a study on "basic financial freedom". The test is quite similar, but instead of giving them a basic income participants are still required create their own income - however, they no longer have to pay taxes on their income. They are encouraged to create businesses and those businesses are also free from tax, and those employed by sai…

So are they no longer allowed to use public roads? How about public utilities? Does the fire department show up at their "un taxed" businesses, how about the police? Can they hire students that received their education from public schools? The fact that there existed a group of people that posted that modern society would be even remotely possible without government is far more likely to be seen as ridiculous in 50 years.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#253
> What can startups do to increase prosperity for everyone?

The greatest thing a startup can do to increase the prosperity of everyone is simply continue trying to be successful, within legal bounds. Every startup is inherently working to lower the cost of living, whether that's their stated goal or not. Even a seemingly useless app startup - if it becomes successful - will (1) add jobs to the economy, (2) give employees and their families more purpose and well-being (working brings people fulfillment and joy), and (3) contribute to lowering the cost of living[1].

Obviously, some startup industries (education, medicine, etc.) have a more direct influence on this process than others, but they all contribute in indirect ways to increased prosperity overall - even if motivated by purely "greedy", capitalistic ideals.

If basic income were somehow to be implemented by providing basic needs (food, shelter, clothing, etc. rather than currency) without the involvement of other people/companies providing those needs, then I believe it could work. The trouble is, even in a world full of automation (and less need for typical jobs), the resources will still be controlled by organizations, governments, and people - and not always the people who have the most need for them. In that environment (and lets face it, certain people, countries, organizations, etc. will always be better suited at doing things than others), the economy is actually zero-sum in the meta sense. No one can consume without another party producing - even if the producers at some point are just owners of machines. And in a competitive economy, things like basic income just become factored into the cost of living, so it's kind of a moot point.

From another angle, if basic income is ever implemented in terms of currency ($x per month), it will not solve poverty. I have plenty of first-hand experience to tell you that a large number of people will choose to live in poverty (or forgo what most of us consider to be basic necessities) by spending that money in foolish ways (gambling, addictions, frivolous purchases, etc). Those people will not accept responsibility for having wasted the money, and we'll be right back to where we are now: people demanding more welfare services from the government.

[1] A successful but useless (practically-speaking) app/game means that people are willing to pay for it. Paying for a good or service that otherwise would not exist contributes in indirect ways to technological progress (e.g., by gaining more adoption, the technologies powering that app will be in a better position to improve and contribute to aspects of our lives that have more practical value), including more investment into things that do improve our quality of life per dollar spent.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#254

Things that would help everyone, regardless of income, without depending on a radical restructuring of entitlement spending, that seem like things startups could actually do: * Equally credible alternatives to university education for professions that don't involve students shouldering $100k-$200k in debt based on decisions they have to make when they're 18 years old. * Empirical, blinded, skills-assessment based tur…

> Equally credible alternatives to university education for professions You're talking about trade schools? Good. That's a step in the right direction. It doesn't go far enough though. One unfortunate reality of our existence is that people differ markedly in cognitive skill. These differences are innate and immutable. Not everyone can benefit from an education. If we pitch education as the way to address to inequali…

No, I am not talking about trade schools. The jobs staffed by trade school grads already do a decent job of not being beholden to university signaling. I'm talking about white collar professional jobs that rely on those signals for reasons having nothing to do with job aptitude.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#255
This is a challenging research problem -- perhaps harder than nutrition and diet research to answer anything definitively.

In the present, everything is connected. Giving someone basic income may mean that they demand higher wages for, say, working as a waiter in a restaurant. But if you only give basic income to some people, then those people still benefit from low-paid waiters (which wouldn't happen if it were on a national scale).

On top of that, it's a dynamic system. Traits like work ethic are partly cultural or passed down in families. Maybe the first generation of BI benefits more from work ethic, but it may decline in a few generations, perhaps undermining BI. That may not be apparent in a small study even of taken over a long time, because the participants will not be isolated from the surrounding culture.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#256
Ask HN: What can startups do to increase prosperity for everyone?

We need a better system for measuring and distributing the value of our work. We lose so much collective value because of the system of inefficiencies built up around how we quantify that value. When 70% of working Americans don't give a shit about their job, we're talking about trillions of dollars worth of "productivity" wasted...

Prosperity comes from people doing meaningful work and exchanging that for an abundant lifestyle. I love the idea of basic income, and am 100% in support, but it is only a tool that will (hopefully) enable people to find their meaningful role in society by alleviating the struggles of poverty consciousness.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#257
Did anyone else read this post, and think, "Wow, what a dream job. What an opportunity to actually study something in real-life with real people that could make a fundamental difference in the evolution of humankind."

It is harder to conceive of a notion more beneficial to the fate of humans than the notion that all humans deserve the basic essentials of life, and that the first task of a civilized society must be to provide those essentials, without regard for any judgements of the worthiness of individuals.

It should be assumed that everyone gets to eat and have shelter.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#258

What I want to know is whether Basic Income implemented with our current housing and laws about land ownership will just run afoul of the Henry George Theorem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_George_theorem IE, the aggregate value of public spending in an area tends to soak into the land value -- give everybody $X,000 a year and the landlords will dutifully raise annual rents by $X,000.

Won't that only work if the land is in high demand?

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#259

Things that would help everyone, regardless of income, without depending on a radical restructuring of entitlement spending, that seem like things startups could actually do: * Equally credible alternatives to university education for professions that don't involve students shouldering $100k-$200k in debt based on decisions they have to make when they're 18 years old. * Empirical, blinded, skills-assessment based tur…

Awesome. A couple points: Alternatives to patient-present doctor-mediated health care to cover the 80% case in which doctors are expensive overkill; some combination of telemedicine and nurse-practitioners. We have police departments and we have fire departments. We should have "nurse departments" that are clinics but much more structured as are fire and PD services for each given area. (I know there is a grey versio…

It was hard for me and Erin to do 7 years ago (our kids are teenagers now), and we're economically very fortunate. I can't imagine how hard it must be for people trying to provide for families on $15/hr to manage child care.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#260

"Ask HN: What can startups do to increase prosperity for everyone?" I think we need a way to have a faster iteration cycle for trying sociopolitcal ideas. The problem is, its almost impossible to change the laws necessary at a governmental level in any reasonable time scale. This is exacerbated by the fact that you are inside a "monolithic legacy codebase" in which you can only afford to make minor changes over many…

Hong Kong has become a Special Administrative Region of China and has it's own justice, education, and political system (mostly). I think it would be a great idea to have several of these regions across the us to "beta test" different policies to see whether they would be good or bad. Changing a policy or law of an entire nation is hard and risky; trying these things out in special regions, where you have a known trial period, would allow much faster innovation in the political space.
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