Request For Research: Basic Income • Hacker News Board

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#201

Post by pdonis » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 8:13 PM UTC

> I think basic income is important to do but decreasing the cost of living is a critical component as well.

I think startups should focus on the second, not the first. The reason is that the second is a technical problem, or rather a lot of different technical problems, all of which are exactly the sorts of things that startups can tackle and succeed in solving.

The first problem, however, is a political problem. Startups are not the right tool to use to address political problems. That's not to say that startups can't play a role: they certainly can. But the role they play is to solve the second problem, and thereby make the first problem a non-problem. If all of the necessities of life were essentially free, because they were no longer scarce (for example, if food were as easy to obtain as air), then there would be no need for basic income because there would be no need for income. So startups can't solve the political problem in the usual sense; but they can "solve" it by making it no longer exist.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#202

Post by clemensley » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 8:13 PM UTC

Honestly, I don't think that people sitting around is the problem with basic income - it's funding it.

Say you are going to give each of the 320M inhabitants of the US $10k per year (that's about the poverty threshold). That would be a cost of $3.2 Trillion per year, or about 50% the total government revenue (federal, state, & local combined). I just cannot see a future where the US raises taxes by a number that anywhere close to 50%.

Source: http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/current_revenue

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#203

Post by avip » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 8:14 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #170

Things that would help everyone, regardless of income, without depending on a radical restructuring of entitlement spending, that seem like things startups could actually do: * Equally credible alternatives to university education for professions that don't involve students shouldering $100k-$200k in debt based on decisions they have to make when they're 18 years old. * Empirical, blinded, skills-assessment based tur…

There's a more trivial alternative to "equally credible alternatives to university" - just ban education based discrimination. Same way US so nicely enforces regarding race or martial status. Make it illegal to ask.

Simple change with 100% guaranteed positive outcome.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#204

Post by jakeogh » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 8:14 PM UTC

"send them a cheque for $10,000 and increase their taxes by ~$10,000" which (suprise) just wastes people's time and money.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#205

Post by Zikes » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 8:14 PM UTC

samstave wrote: post #124

harryh wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love your idea. It's like a perpetual motion machine of money.

Haha - sure, if you get the Evil Bank (TM) interest rate only and the money is sitting there stagnant... Its kinda funny how people who have money live by the mantra "It takes money to make money, but once you have money, money makes itself" Yet any time you talk about investing on the behalf of others/society -- everyone laughs it off as impossible.

I think the idea has merit, but any good idea also has to stand up to criticism.

Your 401k comment gave me an idea for one potential tweak that would make a big difference. If there were a plan to collect a small yet reasonable tax over the course of, say, 10 years or so, to build up an initial pool to draw from, then it might be able to generate enough interest to sustain a continuous payout. Once payouts have started the initial tax might be relaxed or eliminated, though it would depend largely on population growth and how quickly the pool compounds.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#206

Post by martythemaniak » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 8:14 PM UTC

davidw wrote: post #5

There's a very relevant section in this book ( The Second Machine Age: Work, Progress, and Prosperity in a Time of Brilliant Technologies - http://amzn.to/1KFJ1Iu ) , that I just read last night: > "His view is strongly supported by the work of economist Andrew Oswald, who found that joblessness lasting six months or longer harms feelings of well-being and other measures of mental health about as much as the death of…

Indeed, I'm skeptical of anything that promises to free people from work. I think of it as a mobility scooter for healthy people - the idea of not having to walk and be tired might sound appealing, but the actual use will leave you in much worse shape.

Japan seems to have one solution to this problem. It's a culture that highly discourages idleness, yet also aims to look after people's welfare, so they have a very large number of (practically speaking) quite useless jobs - crossing guards on parking lot exits and streets with no traffic, platform attendants, park attendands, etc. It was quite weird seeing this at first, but once I started thinking about it as a socially acceptable form of welfare, it made a lot of sense.

I don't think their system will work here (serving people is seen quite positively there, whereas here it is often looked down upon here), but it is a good working example.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#207

Post by criddell » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 8:14 PM UTC

samstave wrote: post #155

criddell wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's not going to be an answer, of course. I think a good source of data could be the population of retired people. I'm pretty sure if I could afford to be retired, I could easily keep busy the rest of my life.

And busy is relative. Some stay busy napping. Some stay busy zoning on TV/internet. Some stay busy actually creating stuff. All of them may believe themselves to be "busy"

> Some stay busy zoning on TV/internet.

That's a big part of what I wish I had more time for. My list of things I want to watch is long and growing all the time. If I were retired, I would love to be able to sit down and finally watch The Wire or Sopranos.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#208

Post by rmc » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 8:15 PM UTC

liamcardenas wrote: post #95

I recommend this book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_Unexceptionalism_... From wikipedia: "Allister Heath, deputy editor of the The Daily Telegraph, wrote that the book shows how the “remarkable work ethic” of Scandinavians has been eroded by large welfare states over time." (Of course, don't take wikipedia's word for it-- read the book yourself) My take-away: Heavy socialism has absolutely stifled econo…

For the record, the Telegraph is a right wing newspaper.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#209

Post by fsloth » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 8:15 PM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #122

50 years from now, I think it will seem ridiculous that we used fear of not being able to eat as a way to motivate people. Could not disagree more. This has been the ultimate motivator for all human accomplishment, as well as the evolutionary enhancement of all living things on the planet.

Uh, are you sure? No one will starve to death in Sweden and thei businesses are internationally quite competetive.

I would claim Maslows hierarchy is a pretty good model of human motivation - people strive for great things just to be admired and for the love of the art. Not everyone - but those that wont will not turn into Leonardo da Vincis through starvation.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#210

Post by Uhhrrr » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 8:15 PM UTC

I'm really interested in what happens if the basic income isn't used wisely and doesn't change outcomes. What do you do when half the population is obsoleted by technology in that case? PR campaigns and cash rewards for getting a vasectomy?