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Request For Research: Basic Income

blog.ycombinator.com

171–180 of 1001 posts

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#171
Regarding startups and prosperity for everyone.

If "everyone" means "all US citizens" then startups can help increase transparency in government. It's much easier to figure out who to vote for when there's a clear picture of somebody's track record and who their political allies and funders are. Everybody should want this, regardless of political persuasion. If massive data gathering can't be stopped (and it looks that way) then the least we demand is real transparency. Without that there can be no accountability. Most political information people come into contact with is disinformation or shameless propaganda by some special interest. It is getting completely out of hand, but there's no obvious solution.

If "everyone" means "every person in the world", then we need startups to fight for sustainable energy and universal education. All scientific papers must be freely available to everybody in the world (few exceptions, e.g. how to manufacture anthrax can stay secret). Music and literature should be available to everybody, preferably at no cost. A single college textbook costs a month's salary in many parts of the world. That's just cruel.

There isn't much overlap between things that are super important for society and things that are profitable. The civil rights movement wouldn't work as a for-profit venture and future civil rights movements will be no exception. Often enough people who have contributed the greatest value to society never benefited from it personally. Duchesne or Flemming didn't get rich from their discovery of penicillin but the contribution to mankind is immense. In contrast the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation -- with their many billions -- struggle to make a huge impact. To really improve the quality of life across the globe a social revolution of some sort is needed.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on what happens in remote communities here in Australia the result is not pretty. We basically have a basic income here in Australia via our welfare system. What we have found when everyone is jobless is there are huge levels of drug use, domestic violence, child abuse and general criminality. Other than this it works quite well.

I can't say I know much about Australian welfare systems, but here in the US it can be a bit of a trap, since welfare benefits drop fast once your savings or income rises, resulting in a huge disincentive to get off welfare, and furthering the sense of hopelessness, and presumably, the drug and alcohol use. To what extent does Australian welfare gradually taper off as a means to incentivize saving, instead of punishi…

The Australian welfare system has lots of perverse incentives, but the tapper off is not too bad. The effective marginal tax rate is quite low and we have a very high minimum wage by OECD standards.

The real problems come when everyone in the community is unemployed. We really need to work on new societal structures to make sure that we don't follow the same path our remote communities have fallen into.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#173

When I talk with people about basic income, my gut reaction and primary argument is that it contrasts with that fundamental human nature that's been show time and again throughout humanity - given a guaranteed, fixed reward no matter how much or how little you work for it, disincentivizes work. It follows along the same lines as why government instituted communism fails. Or why the first version of the mayflower comp…

I don't think this is equivalent to socialism and communism _at all_. Socialism and communism propose an alternate _structure_ for the economy - one of state-directed planning. This has been demonstrated to fail pretty spectacularly.

Basic income is an extension of the welfare state, which is itself a capitalist construct. It does not presuppose a state-planned economy or really threaten capital ownership or free exchange at all.

Yes, many communist countries have attempted some kind of unconditional income. Was this what sapped people's desire to work? Not really. What sapped their desire was a complete lack of a reward structure. A universal income doesn't destroy the reward structure; it destroys the penalty structure. The big question is whether or not the economy survives that.

On top of that, though, most communist economies imploded because decoupling production from market forces also destroyed incentives towards efficiency, innovation, and satisfying demand. Those are the biggest failures of the state economy and those are not related to universal income at all.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#174
post #44

I'm very skeptical of basic income as commonly understood. The typical basic income program I've seen goes something like this: give every person in the country $10k to live on, no strings attached. [a] 1) As defined above, this is horribly inefficient and expensive. I, a software engineer in Silicon Valley, would receive this $10k. How does this benefit society? I already make over $100k; I don't need additional inc…

No non-strawman BI scheme that I have seen proposes just giving everybody the same net basic income, somehow pulling the money out of thin air. Everyone's gross income would rise but middle to high income households would have their income taxation increase to compensate.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#175
post #8
post #5

There's a very relevant section in this book ( The Second Machine Age: Work, Progress, and Prosperity in a Time of Brilliant Technologies - http://amzn.to/1KFJ1Iu ) , that I just read last night: > "His view is strongly supported by the work of economist Andrew Oswald, who found that joblessness lasting six months or longer harms feelings of well-being and other measures of mental health about as much as the death of…

I think this is one of the most important components to study.

There are long term studies of unemployed in multiple countries that have social safety nets that would be worth reviewing (for example: http://amzn.to/1nosUtx Cultures of Unemployment: A Comparative Look at Long-Term Unemployment and Urban Poverty published by Amsterdam University press in 2006) For many the impact of unemployment (for instance following closure of UK coal mining and steel industries) its not just the loss of job in the economic sense, but the disconnect from the workplace, community, changes in sense of self-worth for individuals and long term cultural and regional impact. There are proven strategies that work and lots of examples that failed. Learning from these and seeing which opportunities map to actions that start-ups can effect through mobile, social and learning technologies might be a useful starting point.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#176
What a cop-out calling it "basic income". As if it's somehow "free money". Really it's just a further institutionalization of theft, of course making people more dependent on mother government. Imagine the debate, should we raise basic income by x or 2x?

The solution is not more laws, it's less. For example ending the war on drugs would have a immediate effect on the lower income brackets. If I didnt pay >1/3 of my income to support our $T war complex I could hire more people.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#177
I'd like to see this sort of research too...

I'd also like to see things like the tax system be used to make changes to income inequality - both in terms of like for like pay as well as to some extent evening up the pay professions each sex choose to go into. i.e. if you are a woman you get tax off up to a certain amount because society screws over your pay for getting pregnant.

I'd also love to see meat taxed on a trading system where by everyone would get a meat quota that was quite small - if you want to eat shitloads of meat great - go for it - but you have to pay someone else for their meat points.

You could set the level of everyone's meat tokens for the year at a level to raise people out of poverty/or alternatively just to reflect the costs to the environment.

I'll releasing more totally unworkable economic policies soon... :-)

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#178

"What can startups do to increase prosperity for everyone?" I think cheap quality housing is a huge area that would help everyone. Taxes and housing together eat up the vast majority of the earnings most people make. What could make a difference? - applying technology to building denser housing. for example, imagine cheap robotic excavation, so every house and building could bury all their parking lots and long term…

Regardless of basic income, fixing housing is super important since it's one of the biggest drains on everyone's income and the fixed nature of it suggests that just giving everyone more money will cause a lot of that money to just end up in landlord's pockets.

I think a lot of the change must be policy change though and cannot be purely free-market oriented since there is a public interest in seeing more housing stock built than a capitalist would want.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#179
post #5

There's a very relevant section in this book ( The Second Machine Age: Work, Progress, and Prosperity in a Time of Brilliant Technologies - http://amzn.to/1KFJ1Iu ) , that I just read last night: > "His view is strongly supported by the work of economist Andrew Oswald, who found that joblessness lasting six months or longer harms feelings of well-being and other measures of mental health about as much as the death of…

Is there any evidence that shows that Basic Income (that you DON'T lose if you happen to find work, as in the USA system) will cause people to sit around idle?

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#180
Maybe increasing prosperity for everyone in a finite (and diminishing) resources world, occupied by ever growing number of humans, is not feasible.

I'm also not sure how we'll go about defining a measurable prosperity?

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