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Request For Research: Basic Income

blog.ycombinator.com

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Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#31

Post by jeremysmyth »

notliketherest wrote: post #13

When I talk with people about basic income, my gut reaction and primary argument is that it contrasts with that fundamental human nature that's been show time and again throughout humanity - given a guaranteed, fixed reward no matter how much or how little you work for it, disincentivizes work. It follows along the same lines as why government instituted communism fails. Or why the first version of the mayflower comp…

...given a guaranteed, fixed reward no matter how much or how little you work for it, disincentivizes work...I just think that socialism and communism (which basic income basically is...)

Wrong. Basic income lifts the floor. It does not concern itself with the ceiling. Calling it communism is utterly wrong and completely missing the point.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#32

Post by larsiusprime »

What I want to know is whether Basic Income implemented with our current housing and laws about land ownership will just run afoul of the Henry George Theorem:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_George_theorem

IE, the aggregate value of public spending in an area tends to soak into the land value -- give everybody $X,000 a year and the landlords will dutifully raise annual rents by $X,000.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#33

Post by digikata »

notliketherest wrote: post #13

When I talk with people about basic income, my gut reaction and primary argument is that it contrasts with that fundamental human nature that's been show time and again throughout humanity - given a guaranteed, fixed reward no matter how much or how little you work for it, disincentivizes work. It follows along the same lines as why government instituted communism fails. Or why the first version of the mayflower comp…

There's a false equivalence between basic income and communism in your reasoning. Under failing communistic systems, that fixed income was generally the only allowed income, whereas basic income is guaranteed at a minimum level with other income allowed.

The capitalistic harnessing of greed still applies in the basic income situation - i.e. the motivation of going to work to get more income is still in effect.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#34

Post by bobby_9x »

samstave wrote: post #18
harryh wrote: post #4

$10,000 * US_POPULATION ~= $3.2T ~= The total annual tax revenue of the US federal government. Something to keep in mind when discussing this topic.

But that number is misleading. I have a spouse and three children. Does that mean we all will get 10K/yr? I have had a different thought on this in the past; Every child born should have $10K put into an account in their name on the day they are born. It will gain interest and grow until they are 18, then they get the money. And as an adult after 21, they are taxed at some rate to pay back the initial 10K that will t…

What will stop people from having multiple kids, just to get the $10K/child windfall?

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#35

Post by lauraku »

I am surprised that it's for only 1 researcher though. The data on startup founders seems to encourage 2 or more people to share the burden and have someone to more explicitly bounce ideas off of. It would seem to be the case that fundamental research like this would also benefit from the cofounder type setup.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#37

Post by harryh »

dmix wrote: post #14
harryh wrote: post #4

$10,000 * US_POPULATION ~= $3.2T ~= The total annual tax revenue of the US federal government. Something to keep in mind when discussing this topic.

Does your "US population" number include people <18yrs old, people receiving social security, and people who volunteer to not receive their basic income payment? They should be exempt from your calculation...

Yes. Since you brought it up I can provide those numbers too:

  Total US population ~= 319M
  Under 18 population ~=  73M
  Over 65 population  ~=  46M
  ---------------------------
  Remainder           ~= 200M
No data on volunteering not to receive, though I don't know many people who pay more taxes than they're required to so I'm guessing that number would be pretty small.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#38

Post by duaneb »

notliketherest wrote: post #13

When I talk with people about basic income, my gut reaction and primary argument is that it contrasts with that fundamental human nature that's been show time and again throughout humanity - given a guaranteed, fixed reward no matter how much or how little you work for it, disincentivizes work. It follows along the same lines as why government instituted communism fails. Or why the first version of the mayflower comp…

I don't think this is a great argument without the data to back it up. People are operating at the gut level and, well, that's not the right level to disabuse powerful economic ideas.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#39

Post by semafour »

mattkrisiloff wrote: post #20
sebii wrote: post #10

There is non-profit startup in Berlin trying to do this, they mainly fund themselves by raising the money from the crowd. It's a lottery system where one can win 1000€ per month for one year, which in most parts of Germany gets you somewhere. They already funded 29 people analyze and blog about who won. Most people actually didn't do dramatic life changes, which also could be because it's just one year. Warning Germa…

It's a big reason we want to do it for 5 years -- things may look different in the longer term.

Is five years long enough to get a real reaction? Unless somebody is on the verge of retirement, and they want to keep working after the experiment, they must consider staying in the job pool or have difficulty getting hired in five years. To see how people would react to a government-provided basic income, which would presumably be fore life, the study may have to emulate that more perfectly.

Nevertheless, I'm very excited by this project and seeing what comes of it.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#40

Post by eanzenberg »

One of the biggest fallacies of the BI movement is they suggest that when AI automates many menial jobs it will lead to mass unemployment. This assumes that the average person is incapable of more skilled labor, when history has shown time and again that people adapt to the changing workforce. Yes there can be lag but it's not insurmountable.

Another problem I have with BI is it equally distributes assistance with no prejudice to those more needy, i.e. the elderly, the disabled, the mentally ill, etc. So you take many funds away from people such as 70+ year olds who are on medication, SS, assisted living (which cost >> BI provides) and distribute available funds to able-bodied people who are "discovering themselves".

Further, having considerable able-bodied people leave the workforce by choice delays global human progress and achievement.

Instead, I am for additional public-sector money being spent on country- and global-level goals which the private sector cannot achieve nor make profitable. These include environmental, energy, medical, transportation, and infrastructure research. By putting public money into these research fields (which is hard/impossible to make profitable) you incentivize progress in areas which further human progress that cannot be met through private means. If you instead incentivize able-bodies to not work, not only do you take money away from needy (not much savings in admin costs) but you delay human progress.

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