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It’s Time to Open Up the GPU

gpuopen.com

71–80 of 95 posts

Re: It’s Time to Open Up the GPU

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sad to say, but it's true. AMD has been claiming "this is the year we really open up" since at least 2007[1]. Well, I'm happy to hear them recommit, but I don't believe them anymore. Now that they are losing ground in the marketplace on the GPU side with deep learning, and their CPUs can't compete with intel on the performance side, their claims ring hollow. Imagine where we would be if they open sourced their dr…

I don't think they ever claimed they would open source their drivers. They've certainly released a ton of documentation for their GPUs over the years.

Which is probably why the open source driver is pretty good. radeon is light years ahead of nouveau.

Re: It’s Time to Open Up the GPU

#72
post #35
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes to your OpenCL stuff, no to your reverse-engineering stuff. The post you linked is about generating your own native shaders on GCN. GPUOpen could possibly expose that, but that's a difficult problem to expose to developers considering the variety of architectures exposed at any time by the IHVs (including just inside one IHV at any time). If they did go down that path, they would open up their internal bytecode-t…

Yes, it may be a difficult problem to handle exposing hardware-specific functionality in a non-portable way, but if GPUOpen is to have any substance at all it's obvious that they're going to actually do some of that. This can't just be an announcement of a batch of OpenGL vendor extensions. And at the moment, it seems like GPU architectures within one company aren't really that much more diverse than Intel's CPU arch…

> but if GPUOpen is to have any substance at all it's obvious that they're going to actually do some of that.

I don't think they'll do it. I think they're going to shoot for SPIR-V being close enough that SPIR-V compilers generate code good enough that the internal compilers can gen good ISA code.

> They're not overhauling the ISA every year.

They aren't, but the changes rev to rev are more significant than you'd expect. On top of that, the big bumps are significant, such as Fermi to Kepler or Northern Islands to Southern Islands (or whatever). These are not backwards compatible with each other, unlike Intel x86 ISA.

Bonus edit: Also...I'd speculate that some IHVs would rather not expose their IL-to-ISA compiler. Not because of 'secret sauce'. But because they aren't that good, and would rather have the OSS community start fresh and do a better job.

Re: It’s Time to Open Up the GPU

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sad to say, but it's true. AMD has been claiming "this is the year we really open up" since at least 2007[1]. Well, I'm happy to hear them recommit, but I don't believe them anymore. Now that they are losing ground in the marketplace on the GPU side with deep learning, and their CPUs can't compete with intel on the performance side, their claims ring hollow. Imagine where we would be if they open sourced their dr…

Have you tried the open AMD radeon drivers lately?

I have not. Care to give us some insite? It's kind of an expensive experiment. It's not like trying out emacs for a week. Unfortunately, I know that an nvidea will work, so I buy that even though it's not open

Re: It’s Time to Open Up the GPU

#74
post #48

First, nullify all the patents ... Seriously, back around the turn of the century I was pretty heavily into graphics and rendering and was frustrated by all the constraints on getting access to documentation. I finally figured out a way to pin down a vendor with all the necessary NDAs and all the necessary agreements so that I could actually get 100% access to the inner workings of the GPU. As long as I read the docu…

Nullify the patents? Why? A lot of R&D has gone into making the best GPU's what they are. What makes you feel entitled to that IP?

I feel a rant on software patents coming on.

I've been in groups that have been on the receiving end of patent lawsuits twice. Both times the patents were transparently invalid.

The first time involves my dorm at MIT. Back before I arrived there some enterprising student had hooked up our laundry machines to the internet so we could all find out when there was a free one and when our laundry was done. The internet at large got wind of this and sadly the servers were Slashdotted in both senses of the word. Shortly after the idea appeared on Slashdot some enterprising entrepreneur filed for a patent on the idea of hooking laundry machines up to the internet and was granted it. Several years later our dorm, through MIT, was sued for patent infringement. Luckily the MIT administration had spines so they didn't get anywhere. But the patent is still in force and other universities still have to pay millions of dollars to this group to hook their laundry machines up to the internet.

The second time involved the first company I worked for out of grad school, a sensors consultancy. They had some ideas about structural health monitoring using piezoelectrics and sent their designs off to another company to be fabbed. They filed for patents on their ideas and shortly after the fab house filed for patents on those same ideas. They mostly got their patents but for some reason the fab house got one in first despite filing later causing their patent application to be denied. Then the fab house sued them and somewhere in the process there were layoffs and I lost my job.

Just because something is patented doesn't mean that it is original and non-obvious. The Patent Office doesn't actually have enough resources to do the job that has been set out for it. The number of patent applications being submitted has increased exponentially over the years but the USPO staff hasn't. You might ask why they just don't fail to grant a patent until they've examined it carefully. Well, they used to do that but the backlog got big and Congress In Its Wisdom passed a law saying that they couldn't have a backlog. You might ask why they don't raise filing fees and use the money to hire more workers. Well, Congress In Its Wisdom has decided what the fees are and has also decided that the USPO can't keep all the money it collects since there are needy people in many other Congressional districts. So that's where we are.

It would not surprise me in the least if many NVidia and AMD patents cover the same ideas in different language. But just because AMD happens to have a patent on the technique they're using doesn't mean that NVidia can't sue them with their own patent on that same technique. Legally patents have a presumption validity behind them so courts are bound to assume the USPO gave them the sort of inspection the USPO is unable except in certain complicated cases.

Re: It’s Time to Open Up the GPU

#75
post #21

This is an AMD project motivated by the fact that NVIDIA has become the de facto standard for GPU computation in deep learning and machine learning applications. TensorFlow, Torch, Theano, CNTK, CAFFE, and every other deep learning framework out there works out of the box with NVIDIA hardware via the CUDA stack, but not with AMD hardware, e.g., via the OpenCL stack. Which is a shame, because the entire NVIDIA hardwar…

Isn't it beautiful how OpenSource is the joker card of the underdogs? Google played it with Android against Apple, too. In 2007 I did my diploma work based on AMD GPU cause it was better. In 2011/12 AMD was the standard for Bitcoin mining, yielding twice the performance than NVIDIA. Now, buying my laptop I ended buying NVIDIA. What happened to AMD?

They're still better for integer ops like password cracking. And they're competitive for gaming.

Re: It’s Time to Open Up the GPU

#76
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> AMD is still better for bitcoin mining Neither CPUs nor GPUs have any remaining relevance there, given ASIC/FPGA miners.

Even FPGAs and older-process ASICs are unusable for Bitcoin today. The network hashpower just broke 1 exahash/second

Side question: does anyone have links on some power bounds for what the Bitcoin network is currently consuming?

Understand it would be a very rough estimate, but seems like it would be possible to arrive at some kind of number given electricity prices as a ceiling and state of the art efficiency as a floor.

Curious on what the magnitude is in relation to other things...

Re: It’s Time to Open Up the GPU

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't we just re-purpose the G in GPU to stand for "general" rather than "graphics"?

I think VPU (for vector) is the most descriptive.

GPUs are not really vector processing units though.

Re: It’s Time to Open Up the GPU

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every company, perhaps every individual, wants to be a big fix in a small pond, rather than one of many small fish in a large pond. I seem to recall that back during the industrial revolution, every supplier of screws had their own direction and density of winding. Thus the engineers running various massive projects had to introduced and enforce various standards to get anything done at all.

Yep. ANSI and ISO emerged because it was mutually beneficial for all. Just like the Khronos group. It's also important that following the standards should be voluntary so innovation can flourish without being hindered by the committee. With the hope that the good ideas will make it back into the open standards.

Yea, reminds me of the original Altair and IBM PC and how both was cloned with profit margins on the boxes falling over time. Unfortunately I think ANSI/ISO and other standard committees was probably poorly suited to setting standards in this area. The right way back then would probably be to design a reference system and release schematics and other design information.

Re: It’s Time to Open Up the GPU

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think VPU (for vector) is the most descriptive.

GPUs are not really vector processing units though.

Most graphics IS vector based math run through matrices. Same with physics. Every vertex is essentially a vector from the mathematical perspective. But you're right, that doesn't quite capture the massively parallel simple core arch that we see today.

Re: It’s Time to Open Up the GPU

#80
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. ANSI and ISO emerged because it was mutually beneficial for all. Just like the Khronos group. It's also important that following the standards should be voluntary so innovation can flourish without being hindered by the committee. With the hope that the good ideas will make it back into the open standards.

Yea, reminds me of the original Altair and IBM PC and how both was cloned with profit margins on the boxes falling over time. Unfortunately I think ANSI/ISO and other standard committees was probably poorly suited to setting standards in this area. The right way back then would probably be to design a reference system and release schematics and other design information.

> The right way back then would probably be to design a reference system and release schematics and other design information.

The interesting choice is to release a fully open design with a solid implementation for your own hardware but also one for the competitor's hardware that meets every part of the spec but you've spent no effort to optimize.

Then everyone starts with your API because it gives support for the largest variety of hardware out of the gate and only supports the competing proprietary API if the project has the resources and the performance difference can justify it.

Which puts the competing hardware vendor in a tough spot. Either they do the work to optimize the open API implementation for their hardware, essentially guaranteeing that the open API wins, or they don't and users of software that supports only the open API start to avoid their hardware.

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