Fairytales much older than previously thought, say researchers • Hacker News Board

Re: Fairytales much older than previously thought, say researchers

#41

Post by the_af » Tue, Jan 26, 2016, 1:20 PM UTC

renko wrote: post #21

the_af wrote: post #5

I have a copy of the collected stories of the Brothers Grimm from my childhood, but when I was young I skipped the preface (and to be honest, most of the "Christian" stories, which I found boring, preferring instead the fairy tales with blood, monsters, witches and the prototypical "the youngest of three brothers gets the princess/treasure"), but when I was older I did finally read the preface and was surprised to le…

What's the book you have?

I'm not sure because it's a Spanish translation. I have it somewhere in the house, but I think it might be the Children's and Household Tales. It has most well-known fairy tales as well as some more overtly "Christian" tales, which as I mentioned I skipped as a child and never found the inclination to read as a grown-up.

The folk tales are both entertaining and gruesome. I remember one story where the father of a family is forced to decapitate his wife and sons, but then there is something with magic blood (I don't remember the details) and when he sticks their heads together, they come alive as if nothing had happened.

My favorites however were not the blood-soaked stories, but the stories where the resourceful younger brother of three -- or sometimes a veteran soldier who decided to make something of his life -- would either cheat others or, alternatively, reach success by being kind to a mischievous gnome or a mysterious old lady.

Re: Fairytales much older than previously thought, say researchers

#42

Post by the_af » Tue, Jan 26, 2016, 1:24 PM UTC

JulianMorrison wrote: post #37

the_af wrote: post #5

I have a copy of the collected stories of the Brothers Grimm from my childhood, but when I was young I skipped the preface (and to be honest, most of the "Christian" stories, which I found boring, preferring instead the fairy tales with blood, monsters, witches and the prototypical "the youngest of three brothers gets the princess/treasure"), but when I was older I did finally read the preface and was surprised to le…

Researchers who altered what they found, often to put an anti-women slant on it.

I can guess what you mean by "anti-women" -- though I remember there were also female heroines in the stories -- but what evidence do you have that they deliberately placed an anti-women slant in the stories (a slant which I assume you'll argue wasn't originally in these folk tales?).

I think folk tales reflect the prejudices of the time. So yes, often ugliness meant evil, and old ladies were witches, and young women would be expected to be virtuous and fair-looking. But sometimes being kind to the old lady in the woods was the right thing to do, and sometimes fair-looking young women were spoiled and selfish.

Re: Fairytales much older than previously thought, say researchers

#43

Post by shardinator » Tue, Jan 26, 2016, 1:51 PM UTC

danieltillett wrote: post #12

adekok wrote: post #10

The Australian aborigines have told the same stories for 10,000 years: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ancient-sea-rise-t... The same for India: http://www.earthporm.com/5-mind-blowing-underwater-cities/ See #3. Most people don't realize just how deep human history is. Words people use every day are ~2000 years old. e.g. "via", goes back to the Roman times.

I am none too convinced by the evidence of the Australian aborigines stories. They are so vague they could just be made up. To give you an idea how unlikely a story would survive being passed down for 10,000 years is, the Tasmanian aborigines lost the ability to fish and and even start fire [1]. Given the critical nature of this information to survival how likely is it that a random story with no survival value would…

Pre-euro Australia was more like Europe with different tribes/nations that shared common characteristics yet still had their own languages and cultures.

Compare and contrast the difference in sophistication between the Romans and the gauls or germanic tribes around 200AD, they would seem totally different worlds. It could have been similar in Aus.

Other indigenous Australian groups invented the boomerang - first ever practical use of aerofoil technology - precursor of modern flight and the woomera which launches a spear around 700-800m with accuracy.

From what I remember their art was somewhat codified so it could almost be "read", this would make it easier to share information across time and place.

If you have groups on two ends of the continent sharing very similar stories, then at least you'd have to allow the reasonable possibility it's more than just random noise.

Re: Fairytales much older than previously thought, say researchers

#44

Post by danieltillett » Tue, Jan 26, 2016, 2:09 PM UTC

shardinator wrote: post #43

danieltillett wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am none too convinced by the evidence of the Australian aborigines stories. They are so vague they could just be made up. To give you an idea how unlikely a story would survive being passed down for 10,000 years is, the Tasmanian aborigines lost the ability to fish and and even start fire [1]. Given the critical nature of this information to survival how likely is it that a random story with no survival value would…

Pre-euro Australia was more like Europe with different tribes/nations that shared common characteristics yet still had their own languages and cultures. Compare and contrast the difference in sophistication between the Romans and the gauls or germanic tribes around 200AD, they would seem totally different worlds. It could have been similar in Aus. Other indigenous Australian groups invented the boomerang - first ever…

The boomerang was not invented in Australia [1]. Woomeras don't allow you to throw a spear 800m (200m at most). These were not invented in Australia either [2]. Both are really ancient technologies.

As for different cultures sharing the same stories is no more surprising than people in England and China sharing similar stories. All pre-agricultural people have somewhat similar lives so we should expect they have similar stories and myths. Occam's razor should rule here.

1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boomerang

2. http://www.donsmaps.com/atlatl.html

Re: Fairytales much older than previously thought, say researchers

#45

Post by School-Cotton » Wed, Jan 27, 2016, 2:33 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #33

adekok wrote: post #10

The Australian aborigines have told the same stories for 10,000 years: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ancient-sea-rise-t... The same for India: http://www.earthporm.com/5-mind-blowing-underwater-cities/ See #3. Most people don't realize just how deep human history is. Words people use every day are ~2000 years old. e.g. "via", goes back to the Roman times.

The Romans also had writing. Writing helps a lot in stabilizing a language. Take a look at English before it was written down - it changed constantly and rapidly. 10,000 years is 500 generations. How many generations of family stories do you have? I have zero from further back than my great-grandparents, that's 3 generations ago, let alone 500. The claim of 10,000 year old stories is very extraordinary, and so extrao…

> Take a look at English before it was written down - it changed constantly and rapidly.

How can we possibly know how fast it was changing before it was written down?

Also, English has been written down since around 500 and still changed constantly and rapidly after that.