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Fairytales much older than previously thought, say researchers

theguardian.com

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Re: Fairytales much older than previously thought, say researchers

#31

Post by brownbat »

david927 wrote: post #16
DasIch wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These stories weren't meant to be children's stories. They just became popular as such and have been edited to make them more child friendly to the point that with Disney they're hardly recognizable anymore.

That's not remotely true. Many of these stories were specifically to protect children. If you can't watch your children all the time, you can't just tell them, "Don't go too close to the water." They'll go anyway. So you tell them, "There are Wassermen (German) / Vodnik (Czech) who will grab you by the feet and pull you in."

Some have useful morals for children.

Others tell you that your family is evil and you should seek advice from talking animals instead.

But the original was published as "Kinder- und Hausmärchen" or "Children's and Household Tales," so you're right that the Grimm's fully expected these would be read to or by kids.

Re: Fairytales much older than previously thought, say researchers

#32

Post by c22 »

danieltillett wrote: post #12
adekok wrote: post #10

The Australian aborigines have told the same stories for 10,000 years: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ancient-sea-rise-t... The same for India: http://www.earthporm.com/5-mind-blowing-underwater-cities/ See #3. Most people don't realize just how deep human history is. Words people use every day are ~2000 years old. e.g. "via", goes back to the Roman times.

I am none too convinced by the evidence of the Australian aborigines stories. They are so vague they could just be made up. To give you an idea how unlikely a story would survive being passed down for 10,000 years is, the Tasmanian aborigines lost the ability to fish and and even start fire [1]. Given the critical nature of this information to survival how likely is it that a random story with no survival value would…

I'm out of my element here, but presumably the fact that they're able to tell stories implies that the fishing knowledge became no longer necessary for survival. It seems completely reasonable that entertaining stories would have more staying power than uneccesary procedural knowledge.

Re: Fairytales much older than previously thought, say researchers

#33

Post by WalterBright »

adekok wrote: post #10

The Australian aborigines have told the same stories for 10,000 years: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ancient-sea-rise-t... The same for India: http://www.earthporm.com/5-mind-blowing-underwater-cities/ See #3. Most people don't realize just how deep human history is. Words people use every day are ~2000 years old. e.g. "via", goes back to the Roman times.

The Romans also had writing. Writing helps a lot in stabilizing a language. Take a look at English before it was written down - it changed constantly and rapidly.

10,000 years is 500 generations. How many generations of family stories do you have? I have zero from further back than my great-grandparents, that's 3 generations ago, let alone 500.

The claim of 10,000 year old stories is very extraordinary, and so extraordinary evidence is necessary to be convincing.

Re: Fairytales much older than previously thought, say researchers

#34

Post by WalterBright »

xefer wrote: post #11

There is a theory that the common motif of a bear associated with the constellation Ursa Major may have been brought to the New World from Siberia during the Ice Age over 13,000 years ago. http://www.folklore.ee/folklore/vol31/berezkin.pdf This theory goes back over a 100 years: "Its stars seem to have been called the Bear over nearly the whole of our continent when the first Europeans, of whom we have knowledge, arr…

> inconceivable

I'm skeptical. Bears used to be very commonplace and a big (literally) deal to anyone who lived in N. America. I don't find it inconceivable at all that bears would figure prominently in N. American spiritualism, which would include the stars.

Re: Fairytales much older than previously thought, say researchers

#36

Post by mclovinit »

WalterBright wrote: post #35
moultano wrote: post #18

I've always wondered if stories with trolls and dwarves date from a time when there actually were other hominids around.

Consider the Bigfoot stories. No evidence seems to be required.

I would not be surprised if stories of other worldly beings aiding in the construction of the pyramids of Egypt long after the pyramids are gone, becomes another fairy tale or at least a derivative in part of that theory.

Re: Fairytales much older than previously thought, say researchers

#37

Post by JulianMorrison »

the_af wrote: post #5

I have a copy of the collected stories of the Brothers Grimm from my childhood, but when I was young I skipped the preface (and to be honest, most of the "Christian" stories, which I found boring, preferring instead the fairy tales with blood, monsters, witches and the prototypical "the youngest of three brothers gets the princess/treasure"), but when I was older I did finally read the preface and was surprised to le…

Researchers who altered what they found, often to put an anti-women slant on it.

Re: Fairytales much older than previously thought, say researchers

#38

Post by kuschku »

marshray wrote: post #20

I have this theory that the Bigfoot story goes back to the time when there really were multiple species of humanoids living in tense proximity. Perhaps it predates even language and became embedded instinctually, thus explaining the sightings.

Well. the Yeti/Mountain Ape stories have existed for centuries.

It's just hard to prove.

Re: Fairytales much older than previously thought, say researchers

#39

Post by danieltillett »

c22 wrote: post #32
danieltillett wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am none too convinced by the evidence of the Australian aborigines stories. They are so vague they could just be made up. To give you an idea how unlikely a story would survive being passed down for 10,000 years is, the Tasmanian aborigines lost the ability to fish and and even start fire [1]. Given the critical nature of this information to survival how likely is it that a random story with no survival value would…

I'm out of my element here, but presumably the fact that they're able to tell stories implies that the fishing knowledge became no longer necessary for survival. It seems completely reasonable that entertaining stories would have more staying power than uneccesary procedural knowledge.

Not been able to fish or make fire in a place like Tasmania if you are living a hunter gather lifestyle is quite a loss.

We know from the archaeological record that the Tasmanian aboriginal population was able to fish for thousands of years after the sea level rose and cutoff Tasmanian from mainland Australia. No one really know why, but after thousands of years of fishing they somehow lost the knowledge of how to catch fish. If something as useful as fishing is lost (the seas around Tasmania teem with fish) then how likely is it that a folk tale would be passed down for 10,000 years by oral tradition.

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