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The Villain of CRISPR

michaeleisen.org

61–70 of 106 posts

Re: The Villain of CRISPR

#61

As time goes on, I'm understanding more and more that academic science, which I had naively imagined to be a pure endeavor prosecuted by good-hearted individuals on humanity's behalf, is in fact as dominated by powerful, acquisitive individuals who are more interested in advancing their own power than in human good, knowledge, etc. The pursuit of IP is taking over the university, much to its detriment.

I'm pretty confident that all the people here have human good and knowledge as their highest priority. They just differ on how to achieve it.

If you are Eric Lander, you've already tuned the Broad Institute towards what you expect to be the most fruitful paths of research to improve humankind, and the best way to have it improve humankind is more funding. Michael Eisen might have different opinions on the best paths of research, and you probably have some things you think will pay off that he doesn't, or he thinks will pay off that you don't. It is entirely rational to look at the amount of money available to fund research from public sources and the amount available from private industry, and determine that the best way to save the world is to get that patent and license it aggressively.

And, if you're Michael Eisen, you know that your colleagues are doing excellent work and only one person can own the patent, and that patent going to the Broad represents a significant loss to your colleagues' potential funding, so it's entirely rational to decide the best way to save the world is to contest the patent aggressively.

If we, the onlookers, want to fix this, we need to fix the funding problem. I rather doubt that either Lander or Eisen were driven by desires of patent ownership or denying other people patent ownership when they originally entered the field.

Re: The Villain of CRISPR

#62
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a huge gap between the scientific breakthrough and the work needed to create a safe and effective therapy. It's not academically interesting, and academic scientists won't do it. It's optimization, not discovery. And what about the cost of the clinical trial, which could be $500m? Government funded research institutions will continue to provide BREAKTHROUGHS to receive funding.

> And what about the cost of the clinical trial, which could be $500m? That's an interesting one, because that cost is entirely caused by the government. The government could for example fund clinical trials, since they're the ones who are interested in it's results (as is by extension the public). As for the rest, if the science were freely available without a patent from the scientists, companies could still spend…

It's an interesting distinction here. I would argue that the science is already free. The Cas9 protein is a natural product. The guide RNA can be synthesized easily. What is being patented here is use of Cas9/CRISPR to edit human cells. In a general sense that is actually the product, and not merely "the science." In other cases, where the Cas9 protein is engineered to achieve things like lower off-target cutting rate, that is a pretty classical case of human invention.

Re: The Villain of CRISPR

#63
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is far more easily explained by contamination, which, as you mention, is actually how they explain it in papers.

Here is another (supplementary table 2). https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26121415 I can keep going, but would prefer you bring references of your own so I cannot be accused of cherry picking.

I'm assuming you're trolling so I will stop responding. CRISPR isn't my field and I'm not going to dig into supplements to disprove your theory, which is that CRISPR is not real somehow? I work in the Church lab. I know tens of researchers personally who use this technology. I am confident that CRISPR is real. However, attempting to prove this to you is a waste of my time.

Re: The Villain of CRISPR

#64
post #15

I have never seen a paper on CRISPR that can distinguish between selecting pre-existing mutants and actually modifying genes. I have read probably a dozen or so at this point, and it is amazing that they always fail to address this either in citations or actual data. At first I thought it was an honest mistake, but now it would not surprise me if some of the main players know that their experiments with CRISPR have b…

Lol, what, just what... the biophysics of the Cas9 system are understood pretty well. We literally get as close as you can get to observing the accepted mechanism of action. How would you explain the consistency of site specific gene integration? You can't be selecting from existing mutants and "just happen" to get your transgenic product inserted at the exact site you specified. Your comment is just absurd. You also don't seem to realize that CRISPR is used at pretty much every university in dozens of different systems by thousands of different scientists. What a bizarre comment. Edit: uh, if you actually need a "source" for this:

http://m.pnas.org/content/109/39/E2579.full

Re: The Villain of CRISPR

#65
post #20

I hate the fact that breakthroughs like this are patentable. People need to follow Alexander Flemings lead: The pharmacist Sir Alexander Fleming is revered not just because of his discovery of penicillin – the antibiotic that has saved millions of lives – but also due to his efforts to ensure that it was freely available to as much of the world’s population as possible. Fleming could have become a hugely wealthy man…

There's a big difference between exclusive licensing and non-exclusive licensing. New drugs (like penicillin) tend to be exclusively licensed because of the costs involved in regulatory approval, and that can slow down technology diffusion - the wrong licensee can sink the technology.

But enabling technologies (like CRSPR) get licensed non-exclusively, particularly when the patent holder is an academic institution. If the patents around CRSPR are licensed non-exclusively, at reasonably prices, and with appropriate treatment for academic researchers, these patents aren't going to slow science down.

A good example is the original polymerase chain reaction patents, which were held by Cetus. Despite lots of legal arguments, PCR was always widely available.

Here's a nice analysis of the PCR patent situation and its effects on technology diffusion: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1523369/

Re: The Villain of CRISPR

#66
post #20

I hate the fact that breakthroughs like this are patentable. People need to follow Alexander Flemings lead: The pharmacist Sir Alexander Fleming is revered not just because of his discovery of penicillin – the antibiotic that has saved millions of lives – but also due to his efforts to ensure that it was freely available to as much of the world’s population as possible. Fleming could have become a hugely wealthy man…

It will take millions of dollars of research to turn this basic bioengineering technique into an approved (safe and effective) human therapy. How do you motivate investors to fund this research without the safety net of a patent to protect that investment from free-loaders?

quite simply, you don't. the motivation is to be either first to market, or have some advantage to your process. If you do the research, you can hold it tight to your chest until it's time to announce your product, by which time you will have a significant advantage over any competition, the amount of time of which is a factor of the difficulty of the subject matter... there's your graduated incentive. low hanging fruit will get plucked. good.

regarding costs of governmental approval: they are a problem. the government will need to use our tax money for this sort of activity rather than shiny new weapons, I suppose. Their fees are absurd. Approval of a specific substance as a treatment for illness ought to be borne by the same public sector that owns it in my common-sensical world i suppose...

Re: The Villain of CRISPR

#67
post #42
post #20

I hate the fact that breakthroughs like this are patentable. People need to follow Alexander Flemings lead: The pharmacist Sir Alexander Fleming is revered not just because of his discovery of penicillin – the antibiotic that has saved millions of lives – but also due to his efforts to ensure that it was freely available to as much of the world’s population as possible. Fleming could have become a hugely wealthy man…

I think the notion that one can own facts will one day be viewed as archaic as the notion that one can own people.

Can you own a secret, though? Or is it OK for a government to force you reveal it publicly?

If people have a right to own secrets, and if NDAs can be legally enforced, then a market of (the knowledge of) facts can naturally emerge that's strictly worse than the patent system.

Re: The Villain of CRISPR

#68
post #15

I have never seen a paper on CRISPR that can distinguish between selecting pre-existing mutants and actually modifying genes. I have read probably a dozen or so at this point, and it is amazing that they always fail to address this either in citations or actual data. At first I thought it was an honest mistake, but now it would not surprise me if some of the main players know that their experiments with CRISPR have b…

Lol, what, just what... the biophysics of the Cas9 system are understood pretty well. We literally get as close as you can get to observing the accepted mechanism of action. How would you explain the consistency of site specific gene integration? You can't be selecting from existing mutants and "just happen" to get your transgenic product inserted at the exact site you specified. Your comment is just absurd. You also…

>"You can't be selecting from existing mutants and "just happen" to get your transgenic product inserted at the exact site you specified. Your comment is just absurd."

This is very easy. If you take a very many cells, some small percent will be mutants at any given site (unless you claim zero background rates of mutation, which is absurd and also directly contradicted by the data in these same papers). If you give a treatment that raises/causes the affinity of DNA damaging substances for a certain site, this will selectively damage the DNA of the non-mutant cells. The proliferation of the non-mutants will be suppressed and many will die off. The remaining mutants will proliferate to fill the gap. See my other post for a (very simple) mathematical model of this phenomenon.

This is not absurd at all. It is basic logic and algebra. I will check that paper and get back to you. I actually have not read any using bacterial cells yet, thanks. Also, as far as I know there are no mathematical models of the standard proposed CRISPR mechanism that have been published, if you know of one that would be great.

Re: The Villain of CRISPR

#69
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is another (supplementary table 2). https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26121415 I can keep going, but would prefer you bring references of your own so I cannot be accused of cherry picking.

I'm assuming you're trolling so I will stop responding. CRISPR isn't my field and I'm not going to dig into supplements to disprove your theory, which is that CRISPR is not real somehow? I work in the Church lab. I know tens of researchers personally who use this technology. I am confident that CRISPR is real. However, attempting to prove this to you is a waste of my time.

Why would you assume someone providing references that contradict your unreferenced claims is trolling? I am not trolling. Also, I am not claiming that the usual mechanism proposed to explain this data is wrong, only that the published data is just as consistent with a selection mechanism. AFAICT, no one knows either way.

Please link to the data that you believe contradicts my proposed mechanism.

Re: The Villain of CRISPR

#70
post #15

I have never seen a paper on CRISPR that can distinguish between selecting pre-existing mutants and actually modifying genes. I have read probably a dozen or so at this point, and it is amazing that they always fail to address this either in citations or actual data. At first I thought it was an honest mistake, but now it would not surprise me if some of the main players know that their experiments with CRISPR have b…

This is a baseless critique.

No one has to address alternative hypotheses that don't make any sense. Are you unaware that Sanger Sequencing exists, and the actual lesions can be read? Or that heterologous genes are being introduced with CRISPR methods? Neither of these common results can be explained by the spontaneous insertion of hundreds of nucleotides that happen to precisely match the sequence of the construct being inserted.

Again, this is utter nonsense and demonstrates a complete absence of basic understanding in molecular biology.

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