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MEGAChat now includes end-to-end encryption

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Re: MEGAChat now includes end-to-end encryption

#31

Post by buu700 »

jvehent wrote: post #29
buu700 wrote: post #28

Since no one else has explicitly brought this up: https://tonyarcieri.com/whats-wrong-with-webcrypto (also see Matasano's "JavaScript Cryptography Considered Harmful", etc.). There is nothing that a service like this will protect you from that you don't already get while using TLS in just about every insecure/non-E2EE chat service. If you're looking for actually secure communication that runs as a Web app, my startup…

> the scheme to accomplish this was rigorously vetted in a 12-day audit. Vetted by whom? It would help build trust if there was a public report on the strength of your implementation available somewhere.

Cure53. The report is public on both their website and ours: http://cyph.team/cure53report.

(That link contains a page of additional context to explain the findings, e.g. some were pre-production.)

Re: MEGAChat now includes end-to-end encryption

#32

Post by Kristine1975 »

DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #20
junto wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice! For those that don't know, Kim Schmitz / Kimble(now Dotcom), sold out his fellow warez peers to the copyright lawyer Günter Freiherr von Gravenreuth. Like the wild West he was supposedly paid per head. http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/04/17/where-k... Not mentioned in the article is his involvement in the AT&T calling card fraud conspiracy (estimated losses $20 million) in the early '90's. It is t…

not to mention having made most of his cash with insider trading in Germany.

Which wasn't illegal at that point, though.

Re: MEGAChat now includes end-to-end encryption

#33

Post by mike-cardwell »

buu700 wrote: post #28

Since no one else has explicitly brought this up: https://tonyarcieri.com/whats-wrong-with-webcrypto (also see Matasano's "JavaScript Cryptography Considered Harmful", etc.). There is nothing that a service like this will protect you from that you don't already get while using TLS in just about every insecure/non-E2EE chat service. If you're looking for actually secure communication that runs as a Web app, my startup…

I don't know what you mean by, "permanently pinned (TOFU) bootstrap", but the fact that it "validates/executes signed application packages" doesn't sound like it protects the end user from you sending them a "signed application package" which contains something to steal their keys/messages...

If you could post a link explaining how this tech works, I would be very interested in reading about it...

Re: MEGAChat now includes end-to-end encryption

#34

Post by ikeboy »

tomjen3 wrote: post #26
pointernil wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any information on the guaranties Moxie Marlinspike/Whisper Systems provide on the Apps downloaded from the App-Store? I get that their source is open and reviewed and trusted but what is this worth when there is no way to tell if users are actually using their version/builds when installed from App-Stores. Same holds true for the necessary servers they maintain. Don't get this wrong please: this is still pr…

You can always compile the programs yourself - you will have to pay for a dev account for iPhone (I think) but Android is free and you can sideload the new app you trust.

If you have the source code, Apple now allows you to install it on your own device without paying for an account.

Re: MEGAChat now includes end-to-end encryption

#35

Post by DanBC »

Freak_NL wrote: post #19

It's great that there is such a strong interest in secure communication, but all of the solutions that keep getting placed in the limelight in recent years are either centralised or exclusively available for use with a smartphone (because of the phone number requirement), often both! I'm sure that these solutions are a lot more secure than completely unprotected alternatives, but am I wrong in assuming that if you wa…

> Call me a sceptic, but this is probably why use of these protocols and principals is limited to security experts and software developers who understand these principals

OpenPGP is impossible for most email users to get working correctly.

Remember that most people don't even know the difference between CC and BCC.

Here's an example of de-anonymising anonymous messages, supossedly from clueful users: https://ritter.vg/blog-deanonymizing_amm.html

Re: MEGAChat now includes end-to-end encryption

#36

Post by buu700 »

mike-cardwell wrote: post #33
buu700 wrote: post #28

Since no one else has explicitly brought this up: https://tonyarcieri.com/whats-wrong-with-webcrypto (also see Matasano's "JavaScript Cryptography Considered Harmful", etc.). There is nothing that a service like this will protect you from that you don't already get while using TLS in just about every insecure/non-E2EE chat service. If you're looking for actually secure communication that runs as a Web app, my startup…

I don't know what you mean by, "permanently pinned (TOFU) bootstrap", but the fact that it "validates/executes signed application packages" doesn't sound like it protects the end user from you sending them a "signed application package" which contains something to steal their keys/messages... If you could post a link explaining how this tech works, I would be very interested in reading about it...

It doesn't protect users from that yet (neither does Signal or any other alternative), but we are about to implement reproducible builds to help mitigate that by allowing users to independently verify that the deployed production build matches up with our source code on GitHub.

That having been said, my cofounder and I are the only two people with the keys to sign releases (and as long Cyph exists they'll only ever be held by either ourselves or an equally small set of individuals deemed worthy to trust with our lives) — so you shouldn't ever expect that kind of deliberate backdoor, even if I end up in prison for refusing. We're also maintaining a strong focus on OpSec of these keys, e.g. we're about to migrate the release signing off of our (full disk encrypted) personal laptops to a dedicated air gapped environment.

As far as how the tech works, we don't have a great explanation on the website yet, so this reddit comment will have to do for now: https://www.reddit.com/r/encryption/comments/4027ci/how_2_sp.... There's also a visualisation in http://cyph.team/producthandout, if that's helpful.

Re: MEGAChat now includes end-to-end encryption

#37

Post by eganist »

buu700 wrote: post #31
jvehent wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the scheme to accomplish this was rigorously vetted in a 12-day audit. Vetted by whom? It would help build trust if there was a public report on the strength of your implementation available somewhere.

Cure53. The report is public on both their website and ours: http://cyph.team/cure53report . (That link contains a page of additional context to explain the findings, e.g. some were pre-production.)

And the original, for anyone who wants it straight from Cure53: https://cure53.de/pentest-report_cyph.pdf

Re: MEGAChat now includes end-to-end encryption

#38

Post by infinity0 »

Note in particular that the current system does not have forward secrecy. Near the end of the post:

> Then we plan to launch a 'Whisper Mode' for additional protection when in instant messaging sessions (e.g. message transcript/order consistency, delivery assurance, forward secrecy, and some others).

This is what I was working on at MEGA, but recently they decided to stop funding me, and I'm under the strong impression that nobody else there is working on this. So it's unclear that they have a concrete time frame for it.

The source code and docs are here though:

https://github.com/meganz/mpenc_js https://github.com/meganz/mpenc_doc https://docs.mega.nz/chat/mpenc/

If anyone wants to continue funding this work, feel free to drop me a line.

Re: MEGAChat now includes end-to-end encryption

#39

Post by Freak_NL »

DanBC wrote: post #35
Freak_NL wrote: post #19

It's great that there is such a strong interest in secure communication, but all of the solutions that keep getting placed in the limelight in recent years are either centralised or exclusively available for use with a smartphone (because of the phone number requirement), often both! I'm sure that these solutions are a lot more secure than completely unprotected alternatives, but am I wrong in assuming that if you wa…

> Call me a sceptic, but this is probably why use of these protocols and principals is limited to security experts and software developers who understand these principals OpenPGP is impossible for most email users to get working correctly. Remember that most people don't even know the difference between CC and BCC. Here's an example of de-anonymising anonymous messages, supossedly from clueful users: https://ritter.v…

> impossible

Difficult perhaps, certainly not impossible, and quite feasible if someone helps you. But I am not suggesting OpenPGP as an alternative for chat-apps for everyone; only for those who understand how to use the technology properly.

I mention OpenPGP and XMPP OTR because they are examples of open standards that do fulfil the principles outlined above. That is, to illustrate that it is certainly not impossible or infeasible to create such a technology. What is missing is a technology that does that, and allows anyone (regardless of technological prowess) to use them safely. It is a tough problem though.

Re: MEGAChat now includes end-to-end encryption

#40

Post by eganist »

infinity0 wrote: post #38

Note in particular that the current system does not have forward secrecy. Near the end of the post: > Then we plan to launch a 'Whisper Mode' for additional protection when in instant messaging sessions (e.g. message transcript/order consistency, delivery assurance, forward secrecy, and some others). This is what I was working on at MEGA, but recently they decided to stop funding me, and I'm under the strong impressi…

Scroll down to buu700's comments. They're likely relevant to your background and probably in a better position to embrace what you've got so far.
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