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80 front-end job applications – nearly no one had basic HTML/CSS/A11y skills

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Re: 80 front-end job applications – nearly no one had basic HTML/CSS/A11y skills

#81

Post by lmm »

Silhouette wrote: post #16
grabcocque wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody wants to understand how CSS works. Sometimes we have to, but it's rarely by choice.

I respectfully disagree. I'd much prefer to understand the real technologies that run the web -- HTML, CSS, HTTP, and so on -- and then use tools and build abstractions on top when it's useful. Starting with some specific framework or tool set inevitably limits what you can achieve. Surely the recent emphasis on frameworks over fundamentals has been a major contributor to the Web full of bland, practically identical…

I find bland, practically identical sites to be the most useful sites. The design gets out of the way and puts the important thing - the content - front and center.

Re: 80 front-end job applications – nearly no one had basic HTML/CSS/A11y skills

#82

Post by Silhouette »

gelasio wrote: post #68
Silhouette wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I respectfully disagree. I'd much prefer to understand the real technologies that run the web -- HTML, CSS, HTTP, and so on -- and then use tools and build abstractions on top when it's useful. Starting with some specific framework or tool set inevitably limits what you can achieve. Surely the recent emphasis on frameworks over fundamentals has been a major contributor to the Web full of bland, practically identical…

I think you missed the point of the post you're replying to. What's the reason that you feel that you want to understand the "real technologies" that run the web? So that you can build better apps with those technologies, right? So, what you really want to do is just build some apps, not learn CSS. See the difference?

If we had been talking about means vs. ends, I would agree.

However, we were talking about knowing HTML and CSS vs. knowing abstractions built on top of them. In that context I didn't interpret the post I replied to the same way that you did.

Re: 80 front-end job applications – nearly no one had basic HTML/CSS/A11y skills

#83

Post by smrtinsert »

no_wave wrote: post #4

Do you think any of those things are difficult to learn? You certainly don't seem to think so. It's like you're looking for reasons to throw up your hands and not hire anyone.

I'm not sure why you are downvoted for being so clear about why the test is insufficient.

Re: 80 front-end job applications – nearly no one had basic HTML/CSS/A11y skills

#84

Post by sosuke »

How did the article make the jump from the author being unable to find their perfect candidate to the rejection of trickle down economic and asking for donations?

I'd say you're looking for a very specific skill set and you'd have better luck teaching a capable candidate how you want your toast buttered than expecting one to walk in with your ideal breakfast.

Re: 80 front-end job applications – nearly no one had basic HTML/CSS/A11y skills

#85

Post by acbabis »

While I agree that the writer's interviewing (or lack thereof) focused too much specifics, I still have to agree with the conclusion in the title (Good HTML/CSS/A11y skills are hard to find). The majority of candidates I interview struggle to explain the difference between `.a.b` and `.a .b`. Kind of hard to write maintainable CSS without that knowledge.

Re: 80 front-end job applications – nearly no one had basic HTML/CSS/A11y skills

#86

Post by dsp1234 »

jevgeni wrote: post #61
fouadf wrote: post #24

With so many frameworks that do almost everything out of the box, and stackoverflow, why would you even care?

What's the value of a developer then, if his/hers only job is to cobble together frameworks and snippets?

The value of a developer is managing complexity and solving business needs. If that can be done with a framework and stackoverflow, then what's the problem? The one off occasion where something doesn't go right? That's why you have the one "goes deep" person on the team that you throw that issue to.

Re: 80 front-end job applications – nearly no one had basic HTML/CSS/A11y skills

#87

Post by ultim8k »

Front-end development is broken. Just consider how shitty html and css (and their browser support) is. Also just think about all these favicons, aria, microformats, sitemaps, sass, frameworks, cdn, you-name-it and the 10k different screen sizes.

Most of the times you get a bloody design and you have to fit it in all screens, even in a bloody watch (2 years ago I was asked to support the symbian browser!). You get asked to make the features and functionality to work everywhere. And also you have to deliver that yesterday.

Re: 80 front-end job applications – nearly no one had basic HTML/CSS/A11y skills

#88

Post by sotojuan »

daiwei wrote: post #10
daleharvey wrote: post #5

At 80 people it might start being the time to question whether its really everyone else thats unskilled or your approach to evaluation is wrong. Asking a pop quiz of arbitrary tools / techniques that you happen to have remember really isn't a good way to evaluate if someone is a good developer. I am a good developer and I only just remember what clearfix is, I most certainly couldnt explain how it works.

Totally agree. I see front end job descriptions asking for understanding of Java and .Net but no mentioning of JS, CSS or any HTML. There could be easily a miscommunication of misunderstanding what the company want. Not saying the job description used here is wrong, just an example of miscommunication.

In my experience job postings like that focus solely on JavaScript and whatever tools the company uses—HTML/CSS is usually implied, no one has ever asked me about it.

Re: 80 front-end job applications – nearly no one had basic HTML/CSS/A11y skills

#89

Post by davidpatrick »

smrtinsert wrote: post #25

What a ridiculous set of requirements and self aggrandizement. I've read about aria attributes more than a few times, but do I care to remember them? No, because you set them up once and move on. Hiring people, don't confuse route memorization with job performance. It's an absolute ridiculous requirement. Thankfully not one of those applicaments would have wanted to work there.

This is the most important point. This guy did these applicants a favor. Nobody wants to work for somebody like this.

It sounds like these applicants wasted their time to help the Author write some bait click article to attract traffic.

Re: 80 front-end job applications – nearly no one had basic HTML/CSS/A11y skills

#90

Post by tomjen3 »

jakozaur wrote: post #9

Just use some automated coding test like Codility: https://codility.com/ Even an easy JavaScript programming tasks can filter a lot of applications so you can concentrate on best candidates.

Except the best candidates have other options and so probably won't spend time on your test.
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