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80 front-end job applications – nearly no one had basic HTML/CSS/A11y skills

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Re: 80 front-end job applications – nearly no one had basic HTML/CSS/A11y skills

#21
post #6

And almost no backend developers can write assembler either! It's almost like we've spent decades layering abstractions on this stuff so we don't have to wrangle it ourselves, isn't it.

There are no useful abstractions that will let you fail to understand how HTML and CSS work.

I'm still not sure CSS works. I think it just sometimes accidentally does what I want it to.

Re: 80 front-end job applications – nearly no one had basic HTML/CSS/A11y skills

#22
post #2

Provide an example you saw.

I agree with this. I don't believe 80 would fail if he reconsidered his metrics.

To pinpoint one of his major gripes - I've moved further "back" down the stack since, but when I was doing strictly front-end I had to make a fully accessible page for some clients, but not others. If anything this post gets me aware that portfolio content is also judged for accessibility, so it provided me that benefit should I take on front-end projects in the future. Some may call it lazy, but I tend to focus on "bigger picture" accessibility issues such as contrast and font scaling.

Also with clearfix - many times its actually abused and painted on every element including ones that don't need to clear its children. It's also not the only way to solve the problem - soon display: flow-root will be adopted across browsers.

Re: 80 front-end job applications – nearly no one had basic HTML/CSS/A11y skills

#25
What a ridiculous set of requirements and self aggrandizement. I've read about aria attributes more than a few times, but do I care to remember them? No, because you set them up once and move on.

Hiring people, don't confuse route memorization with job performance. It's an absolute ridiculous requirement.

Thankfully not one of those applicaments would have wanted to work there.

Re: 80 front-end job applications – nearly no one had basic HTML/CSS/A11y skills

#28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody wants to understand how CSS works. Sometimes we have to, but it's rarely by choice.

I respectfully disagree. I'd much prefer to understand the real technologies that run the web -- HTML, CSS, HTTP, and so on -- and then use tools and build abstractions on top when it's useful. Starting with some specific framework or tool set inevitably limits what you can achieve. Surely the recent emphasis on frameworks over fundamentals has been a major contributor to the Web full of bland, practically identical…

A lot of these objections to abstraction sound like the objections to abstraction that we had back when we first invented interpreters and compilers. Are you sure that you want to be objecting to abstraction itself, rather than to our current, potentially inferior, implementations of abstractions?

Re: 80 front-end job applications – nearly no one had basic HTML/CSS/A11y skills

#29

At 80 people it might start being the time to question whether its really everyone else thats unskilled or your approach to evaluation is wrong. Asking a pop quiz of arbitrary tools / techniques that you happen to have remember really isn't a good way to evaluate if someone is a good developer. I am a good developer and I only just remember what clearfix is, I most certainly couldnt explain how it works.

Agreed. I understand missing accessibility (either you have ARIA or you don't), but what does "solid markup skills" mean? The differences between many tags is just user agent stylesheet defaults. If I wanted to be extra crazy, I could build a website using alone. Or maybe I am just a bad developer.

Re: 80 front-end job applications – nearly no one had basic HTML/CSS/A11y skills

#30
If you get 80 applications and none of them have what you are looking for, this seems like the issue is being able to get the right candidates to apply. Or, perhaps it's just not possible to find enough people who have the skills in which case, I suppose you should train them?

Alternatively it seems like a good case for putting some sort of earlier filtering mechanism, like giving a short quiz or coding exercise to see if they know what you want them to know. I remember reading an article by TripleByte on how their quiz actually was a better filtering mechanism than a coding exercise though.

> After reviewing a lot of applications in the past days, I can only agree with Kristian Glass here and say: “If you get the chance, always send a cover letter”. It’s your opportunity to say something about yourself and make clear why you apply for the job.

I can understand why employers feel this way, but from an applicant's perspective, the reason someone applies to your company most likely is that they need to make a living. Frankly I don't think there's anything wrong with that and it's not something I would think stops people from being good employees. After all, it's difficult to know how much you'd like to work somewhere unless you've actually been there.

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