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As Angel Investors Pull Back, Valuations Take a Hit

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Re: As Angel Investors Pull Back, Valuations Take a Hit

#101
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The more money that flows to the sector the more of a magnet it is for sociopaths and I don't think many of us are very good at dealing with sociopaths. You mentioned fraud, care to give some examples (no need to name names of course).

I've seen some things I'd have to tone down to sell as believable fiction, and this was several years ago doing consulting for startups. Standard issue asshattery include things like: - Paper-thin mock up demos of a product being misrepresented as actual finished sale-able product. Sorry but the V in MVP stands for viable . - Impressive people are touted as employees, even co-founders, and when you go talk to them it…

> - Products that would violate known laws of physics or proven mathematical theorems. (Or sometimes even grade school math...)

Drop-Kicker just covered one such startup: http://drop-kicker.com/2016/01/ampy-move-teardown-and-review...

This is from three PHD engineering students from Northwestern.... over $1.5MM raised via Kickstarter and investors.

Hard to believe the founders (remember PHDs) are so naive to actually believe in their own advertising claims.

Re: As Angel Investors Pull Back, Valuations Take a Hit

#102
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a luxury condo in downtown SF? Yes. That's not where the people who work for a living at charitable organizations live. HN is a weird bubble.

Heh. No, I looked up the average rent for Oakland, which I assumed would be less expensive than downtown SF. I saw $3k, which would likely be higher than the take home pay for a low-level employee.

I live in the Bay Area and I don't know anyone who pays $3k for something in Oakland by themself. I think the averages you're looking at probably show a bunch of places multiple people live in together and split.

Re: As Angel Investors Pull Back, Valuations Take a Hit

#103
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> anything that hasn't been implemented yet doesn't even qualify to be discussed in other terms than hypotheticals. Except that once you implement it, investors start anchoring to how small your numbers are. Catch 22. I work with an actual IoT startup. Hardware--implemented. Backend and frontend--up and running on Azure migration to AWS ongoing. Customers who pay? Yep--and they love it. So, investors? "Ick, haaaardwa…

Curious to hear what startup yours is. Mind to share the name?

> Mind to share the name?

Yeah, not right now, thanks. I'll share the name when I'm ready for a stress test.

Re: As Angel Investors Pull Back, Valuations Take a Hit

#104
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> anything that hasn't been implemented yet doesn't even qualify to be discussed in other terms than hypotheticals. Except that once you implement it, investors start anchoring to how small your numbers are. Catch 22. I work with an actual IoT startup. Hardware--implemented. Backend and frontend--up and running on Azure migration to AWS ongoing. Customers who pay? Yep--and they love it. So, investors? "Ick, haaaardwa…

Have you looked at more conventional forms of funding? If you already have meaningful revenues, why not just get a small business loan from a commercial bank? I've never done it, but I expect the interest rates are laughably low at the moment if you have decent credit and some assets (hardware, so yes) to back the loan. Plus, you wouldn't have to give up any equity.

> Have you looked at more conventional forms of funding?

We have, but hardware doesn't lend itself to small amounts of money. And there are different trajectories depending upon whether you can get 500 thousand, 2 million, or 5 million.

The folks I work with are religious about maintaining a low burn rate. Hardware has a LOT of NRE, and you can get in deep trouble very quickly.

We actually had to be very hard-nosed with customer which we expected to be profitable with about 100K volume (actually kind of the Valley of Death in electronics volume--100K has all the NRE of huge volume without the profitability) because we simply couldn't take the risk with cash we had in reserve. If the customer didn't follow through, the NRE would have killed the company. This is a very different discussion if you have 5 million in the bank.

In addition, while I can't prove it, I suspect that we lost some funding because we're religious about burn rate management. VC's want "Go big or go home" and someone who is managing burn rate well is anathema to this.

Re: As Angel Investors Pull Back, Valuations Take a Hit

#105
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Enginers like you and I may have the same idea of what's right, but I'd rather see an actual investor describe how it's actually happening.

I'm also an actual investor (but on a very small scale, I'm pretty careful) and that's how it is actually happening. Except when it isn't and there will be blood (investor blood). I make a living like doing tech dd, and when a due-diligence needs other expertise I'll be the first to point it out. This works pretty good for investors and technology people alike. Investors that don't do due diligence at all end up losi…

So due diligence is happening after they decided to invest, right?

What about before? There is a number of startups that are pitching you (the generalized investor you), and for most of them you wouldn't know enough about target market to judge one way or another. Like, you don't know about wholesale distribution of manufactured goods from mid sized companies, how can you assess if the founders are onto something?

Re: As Angel Investors Pull Back, Valuations Take a Hit

#106
post #59
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feel comfortable sharing one idea? Just curious, completely understand if you'd prefer not to.

Most of the ideas and products I attempted to get funded were around the idea of transforming the electronic medical record (in the broadest sense) from a mostly free text entity to a mostly well modeled discrete data entity. For more specific ideas I would be happy to discuss outside this board.

Thanks! It's a good idea, but I can see why it was hard getting funding - it's a difficult market to enter: a lot of people are trying to do this, including large well entrenched competitors, there's a high regulatory burden, and you're selling to a conservative customer base (doctors who need to change their working habits + hospital admin who need to make a significant investment).

(I'm sure you know all of that, by the way, just reflecting on how difficult it would be to convince an investor).

Re: As Angel Investors Pull Back, Valuations Take a Hit

#107
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you looked at more conventional forms of funding? If you already have meaningful revenues, why not just get a small business loan from a commercial bank? I've never done it, but I expect the interest rates are laughably low at the moment if you have decent credit and some assets (hardware, so yes) to back the loan. Plus, you wouldn't have to give up any equity.

> Have you looked at more conventional forms of funding? We have, but hardware doesn't lend itself to small amounts of money. And there are different trajectories depending upon whether you can get 500 thousand, 2 million, or 5 million. The folks I work with are religious about maintaining a low burn rate. Hardware has a LOT of NRE, and you can get in deep trouble very quickly. We actually had to be very hard-nosed w…

I can see how hardware would benefit from someone taking a risk with investment. It's better to sell hardware at the price point it would be at if you are doing it large scale to test the market, even if you are selling it at a loss. However, it sounds like you are almost beyond that point and know there is a demand and at what price, but it was probably hard to compete for investment (and talent) when investors were willing to throw money at zany schemes with hopes of unicorns. I hope for you, once investors become more careful again, that a business with something more proven and where the cash was managed sensibly will be exactly the type of company that most investors will be keen on. This was roughly the situation after the dotcom boom, except investors were poorer and less confident (well, I hope). I also think investors will have to increase their appetite for hardware, because IoT and autonomous vehicles are showing a lot of promise. I also think money that would normally go to unconventional oil and gas projects would be seeking something new. Good luck!

Re: As Angel Investors Pull Back, Valuations Take a Hit

#108
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm also an actual investor (but on a very small scale, I'm pretty careful) and that's how it is actually happening. Except when it isn't and there will be blood (investor blood). I make a living like doing tech dd, and when a due-diligence needs other expertise I'll be the first to point it out. This works pretty good for investors and technology people alike. Investors that don't do due diligence at all end up losi…

So due diligence is happening after they decided to invest, right? What about before? There is a number of startups that are pitching you (the generalized investor you), and for most of them you wouldn't know enough about target market to judge one way or another. Like, you don't know about wholesale distribution of manufactured goods from mid sized companies, how can you assess if the founders are onto something?

> So due diligence is happening after they decided to invest, right?

Yes, usually this happens after the terms sheet is signed (and for smaller investments after a letter of intent is signed or a handshake deal is agreed upon). Up to that point it is read as true that everything the founder says will check out.

The due-diligence process is there for two reasons: to fulfill the 'duty to research' for a VC to cover their backs in case a deal goes bad after investment and LPs wonder how the hell they got suckered in like that as well as to simply protect the funds.

For angels the situation is worse here because they don't have the funds or the organization to do this properly.

> What about before?

Typically a VC has a number of analyists that assess the companies that pitch them to see how solid the various commercial claims are. The accent there is usually on the numbers and the commercial side of things, which is reflected in the education of the associates (typically: finance, accounting and/or a bit of legal and commercial).

Angels tend to do this part by themselves.

Angels and VCs do roughly the same thing, only angels do it earlier on (when the risk is higher, companies are cheaper and the deals are much smaller so they can still participate), the biggest difference is dictated by the size of the deals, it limits the amount of money you can spend in order to determine if you spend it wisely.

To make an extreme example: a full legal/commercial/technical/financial dd would cost approximately 100K or so. The bulk of that will be eaten up by the legal portion, the remainder is roughly equally split between the other parts.

If you're looking to plunk down 100K as an angel if you actually did a full DD you'd be out 200K if the deal goes through or 100K if it doesn't, so then there is no point in doing DD at all. Hence my advice to do an abbreviated one scaled down to a portion of the size of the investment, but to definitely look at all these aspects of the company, if possible through the eyes of an outsider.

The other important thing to remember is that doing DD puts a strain on the company you invest in, and if every angel would do a full DD on a company before investing then the company would grind to a halt during their seed round.

Yet another note: for seed investments there usually isn't a whole lot to verify anyway, the company is still tiny, probably has no turnover (so financial dd becomes: look at the model), has very little technology (so tech becomes: look at the proof of concept) and so on. So everything becomes a lot simpler anyway, it wouldn't be possible to do a full process DD on a start-up that has only just become real enough to look for seed funding.

Re: As Angel Investors Pull Back, Valuations Take a Hit

#109
post #44

As many have mentioned: the big wildcard here is how economically incestuous the startup world is. How many smaller startups are dependent on trickle-down from the unicorns? If the answer is "not too many" then it will not affect the other 99% of bootstrapped or less lavishly funded startups. If the answer is "a lot" it will be rough and have cascading follow-on effects. A major driver of the 2000 bubble was startups…

That might actually be a problem at the moment, mobile and web content producers making good money off advertising from other well funded startups in the B2C space (e.g. mobile), and all of the ad tech industry in between. It hurt when the property bubble burst and property web development and ad revenue took a knock.

Re: As Angel Investors Pull Back, Valuations Take a Hit

#110
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So due diligence is happening after they decided to invest, right? What about before? There is a number of startups that are pitching you (the generalized investor you), and for most of them you wouldn't know enough about target market to judge one way or another. Like, you don't know about wholesale distribution of manufactured goods from mid sized companies, how can you assess if the founders are onto something?

> So due diligence is happening after they decided to invest, right? Yes, usually this happens after the terms sheet is signed (and for smaller investments after a letter of intent is signed or a handshake deal is agreed upon). Up to that point it is read as true that everything the founder says will check out. The due-diligence process is there for two reasons: to fulfill the 'duty to research' for a VC to cover the…

Thank you for taking the time to answer my question!

The reason I'm asking is that I keep imagining this picture: suppose there are 20 areas of economy(there are more but bear with me), and each angel knows one area well. Startups come at random from all 20 areas, so for 1 in 20 pitches the investor hears about something he understands deeply, can ask good questions and question assumptions. And so he can make an educated decision. What about the other 19? He can't judge the financials because it's too early. He has to rely on various proxies, such as interest from others (not necessarily any more qualified), the quality of the deck, the looks or pedigree of the founders (PhDs and professors are like really sexy as I found out), and so on. The likely rejection reason then comes out arbitrary, and obfuscated. Few people just say "not my area" before you even start. The startup founders are now wasting their time in 95% of the cases, unless they come with a sexy background and then investors are just piling up.

Wouldn't that be a lot more efficient if investors just referred unknown companies to a buddy who knows the domain area? I don't see it happening. Am I looking in the wrong place?

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