Clojure is for Type B personalities • Hacker News Board

Re: Clojure is for Type B personalities

#41

Post by mathgenius » Fri, Jan 22, 2016, 9:58 AM UTC

Pretty great article. I've thought alot about these issues aswell. The tension between the two types is difficult to deal with and I don't really know any solution, apart from mutual respect.

My characterisation of the two types would actually reverse the top-down/bottom-up labels: type-A's seem to be dithering around in the details, trying to assemble something larger, while type-B's get the big picture, but loose focus as they zoom in on the details. In practice this explains the outward appearance: type-A's obsession with getting the plan right (because they are chronically lost), and type-B's rapid tinkering (because they never know if their crazy idea is going to work or not).

The two types struggle to connect: type-A just sees the B as a big mess, and type-B sees the A as technically correct but missing the point entirely.

Re: Clojure is for Type B personalities

#42

Post by WildUtah » Fri, Jan 22, 2016, 11:32 AM UTC

such_a_casual wrote: post #24

WildUtah wrote: post #18

Robert X Cringely said that programmers are divided into nerds and geeks. The nerds do the wrong thing well and the geeks do the right thing badly. The reason computers are a revolutionary productive technology is that when you put them together on a team they don't do what you would expect and do the wrong things badly but instead do the right things well. I don't know how to use that story to write better Clojure,…

Link?

Column was published before the web was invented (in the 1980s), so I have no idea.

Re: Clojure is for Type B personalities

#43

Post by pka » Fri, Jan 22, 2016, 12:53 PM UTC

jorgecurio wrote: post #14

so much of this hit home. I'm disorganized. I like to just get at the meat of the problem. I don't sit on my hands shopping for programming patterns to use. I compare the process of creating software much like pottery when you start out with clay it's not clear what the end result is going to be. But as you play around with it something forms, and you impose more structure and clear cut features with refactoring. typ…

More likely, your "type B" programmer will build a half-assed MVP with 20% of the initial features that will break every 5 seconds and thus the "million dollars paying startup" will lose their customers to the saner competition.

I will also very much question your visionaries/maintenance distinction. Many dynamic languages today are influenced by technology developed in academia. This is because the "type B coder" you are speaking of lacks the theoretical foundation to build sound abstractions that are proven to not break.

I would describe myself very much as a "type B" personality - I'm completely disorganized, messy and lazy. I've event gotten into (physical) fights with flatmates over this.

And precisely because of this, I'm choosing technology that takes away all the rigid bookkeeping and context switching that is needed when writing anything more complex than a basic Bootstrap/Angular/whatever bullshit CRUD app.

This is because refactoring is a lot harder in a language without structure. I would never dare rip out the base data structures and replace them with something completely different in a project with more than 2kloc in a language without types. While in a logically sound language I do that daily and don't even care - a perfect fit for my "type B" personality.

Re: Clojure is for Type B personalities

#44

Post by sanderjd » Fri, Jan 22, 2016, 3:22 PM UTC

jorgecurio wrote: post #27

sanderjd wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an extremely high-and-mighty perspective. If this is truly your worldview, you may do well to take a step back and consider upping your humility and compassion levels. Next time someone gives you shit for your eccentric decisions, maybe try really asking yourself whether they might be right and you might be wrong. Next time you see somebody reading up on programming techniques and best practices, maybe consid…

>The type A programmers are right that correctness and uniformity is important for building robust, maintainable software. The type B programmers are right that a tight feedback loop and experimentation is important for building simple, innovative software. Almost early on in any startup phase, you want a type B to quickly build MVP without drama and then hiring type A to refactor it. I've seen a startup get all work…

I really didn't take what you said "to the heart". I was more hoping to nudge you toward a greater self awareness. (I'm also being pretty high-and-mighty by thinking that's my prerogative, so there we are.)

The truth of the matter is that knowing when and how to build an MVP quickly without wasting time on the wrong things and knowing when and how to create reliable and maintainable software is all part of your job as a software developer. Choosing one or the other as "that's just how I am" is shirking responsibility.