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Why didn't France adopt the longbow like England did?

peterleeson.com

11–20 of 180 posts

Re: Why didn't France adopt the longbow like England did?

#11
I fail to see their references to support the claim that france or scotland was more politically unstable.

Also how about the rest of european powers, I am not certain there is support that england was the only politically stable entity is europe during the middle ages.

Re: Why didn't France adopt the longbow like England did?

#12
post #8

I see a possible problem with this theory: in few words, according to the authors the French and Scots did not adopt the longbow for fear of rebellion. Still the nobles participated to the very battles that saw them being defeated by the English and their longbow. If the longbow was cheap and relatively easy to adopt, a noble aspiring to the crown would have been able to develop the technology independently from the…

The paper does address exactly that point. The longbow required sustained central support over many years which prevented rebellious nobles from quickly adopting it:

"These features of longbow technology had two important implications for those interested in adopting it. First, centralized efforts were necessary to create a culture of archery. As shown above, these efforts in England consisted of laws supporting bow ownership and practice, restrictions on competing leisure activ- ities, subsidies for bows, and festivals and tournaments focused on archery skills. Because of this, the longbow could be adopted only by, or with the permission and support of, a nation’s ruler, who alone wielded the authority and resources required to undertake such e orts. Indeed, given the nature of longbow technology, to have even attempted to adopt the longbow without his ruler’s permission, a noble, for example, would have needed to successfully hide the fact that he was continuously training large numbers of archers for years—a highly improbable proposition. Second, conditional on a nation’s ruler adopting longbow technology, a usurper noble with an eye on the Crown, or a prince interested in independence for his territory, could lead an effective rebellion against his ruler by supplying the inexpensive weapon to large numbers of citizens, whose ruler-sponsored training and practice with the bow had made them proficient archers. Thus, to be willing to develop longbow use in his country, a ruler had to be confident that his efforts would not be turned against him."

Re: Why didn't France adopt the longbow like England did?

#13
I've only read the abstract, so I'm not sure if this is covered, but the longbow requires huge amounts of practice from a young age to be effective. You had to be incredibly strong just to draw the string. A crossbow, by contrast, was easier to draw, and men could be trained to use it in a far shorter time. English Kings had constant problems with procuring enough men capable of using a longbow, passing all sorts of laws banning all sports except archery etc. Perhaps the French simply couldn't find enough trained men?

Re: Why didn't France adopt the longbow like England did?

#14
post #8

I see a possible problem with this theory: in few words, according to the authors the French and Scots did not adopt the longbow for fear of rebellion. Still the nobles participated to the very battles that saw them being defeated by the English and their longbow. If the longbow was cheap and relatively easy to adopt, a noble aspiring to the crown would have been able to develop the technology independently from the…

Monarchy doesn't really work like that.

Re: Why didn't France adopt the longbow like England did?

#15
post #11

I fail to see their references to support the claim that france or scotland was more politically unstable. Also how about the rest of european powers, I am not certain there is support that england was the only politically stable entity is europe during the middle ages.

Well, England did have the distinct advantage of being the largest power on an island - while they didn't manage to conquer the Scots the Scots weren't really much of a threat to them. So they got a certain amount of stability largely through geography.

Re: Why didn't France adopt the longbow like England did?

#16
post #14
post #8

I see a possible problem with this theory: in few words, according to the authors the French and Scots did not adopt the longbow for fear of rebellion. Still the nobles participated to the very battles that saw them being defeated by the English and their longbow. If the longbow was cheap and relatively easy to adopt, a noble aspiring to the crown would have been able to develop the technology independently from the…

Monarchy doesn't really work like that.

In what way? I think royal power at that time was less well defined than we might think (e.g. the Scots statement that Robert the Bruce was only King as long as he kept defeating the English and if he failed to do that he'd get replaced).

Re: Why didn't France adopt the longbow like England did?

#17
post #8

I see a possible problem with this theory: in few words, according to the authors the French and Scots did not adopt the longbow for fear of rebellion. Still the nobles participated to the very battles that saw them being defeated by the English and their longbow. If the longbow was cheap and relatively easy to adopt, a noble aspiring to the crown would have been able to develop the technology independently from the…

The paper does address exactly that point. The longbow required sustained central support over many years which prevented rebellious nobles from quickly adopting it: "These features of longbow technology had two important implications for those interested in adopting it. First, centralized efforts were necessary to create a culture of archery. As shown above, these efforts in England consisted of laws supporting bow…

Yes, I read that, and of course it is possible. Nevertheless the fact that the centralized government was unstable and news would not travel too fast makes me think that it is a bit strange nobody tried it in 150 years. The maps of France they present also shows that lots of territories would not recognize the French crown for long time. Those could have developed the technology and either take over the throne or give the crown one more reason to develop the technology themselves.

Maybe the line is thin, but given the long times it seems strange to me that there has not been at least an attempt to this (at least to my knowledge, but they don't cite any such event).

Re: Why didn't France adopt the longbow like England did?

#19
Interesting read of the introduction - and very good points. Perhaps yew was also way too hard to come by / expensive for the Scottish?

Also, it does make sense that training long term military personel was reserved to the ruling feudal class. Still, producing a longbow compatible population (of strong, loyal) men might have had other costs then political ones. Precision wise, a longbow is not a real tournament weapon - and you needed tall, strong men to wield it.

Re: Why didn't France adopt the longbow like England did?

#20
post #19

Interesting read of the introduction - and very good points. Perhaps yew was also way too hard to come by / expensive for the Scottish? Also, it does make sense that training long term military personel was reserved to the ruling feudal class. Still, producing a longbow compatible population (of strong, loyal) men might have had other costs then political ones. Precision wise, a longbow is not a real tournament weapo…

> Perhaps yew was also way too hard to come by / expensive for the Scottish?

One of the first point the paper makes is that the domestic supply of english yew was of poor quality and way outstripped by the demand, and the country imported yew from throughout continental Europe. So while yew availability may have been an explanation for Scottland, it definitely wasn't for France.

> Still, producing a longbow compatible population (of strong, loyal) men might have had other costs then political ones. Precision wise, a longbow is not a real tournament weapon

The longbow is a tournament weapon if you set up longbow-only tournaments and legally forbid other sport tournaments.

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