Why we choose Java instead of a polyglot stack • Hacker News Board

Re: Why we choose Java instead of a polyglot stack

#71

Post by NicoJuicy » Thu, Jan 21, 2016, 10:41 PM UTC

jcrites wrote: post #42

nv-vn wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really not a fan of these kinds of blanket statements where you lump everything into "JVM" or "failure". The JVM is a good platform for performance, stability, etc. but it's not the only one. The .NET ecosystem is pretty high up there for performance (and gives you a bit more room for fine tuning) and it easily has some of the best support in the industry (both 1st and 3rd party). And we've all seen success stori…

.NET is a pretty strong contender and provides a lot of the benefits of Java, I agree. C# was ahead of Java language-wise for many years, though Java is catching up, and there are elements of the CLR and model that I'd prefer over Java, such as properties. I also recall the .NET assembly model being clearer than Java equivalents like classloader. await's pretty nice. It's all been focused around Windows though for ye…

I see a trend of more community for .Net ( because of Microsoft's efforts) and less through Java ( because of Oracle's non-efforts)

Re: Why we choose Java instead of a polyglot stack

#72

Post by mschuster91 » Thu, Jan 21, 2016, 10:43 PM UTC

jcrites wrote: post #39

mschuster91 wrote: post #33

When you try to use Java you will need new, young programmers. Experienced Java programmers will most often be indoctrinated/trained/used to over-engineering and wrapping everything in layers upon layers of abstractions. And the existing Java learning books, tutorials and examples still tend to follow that mindset. The more abstracted your code is, the slower it will run, the more memory it will consume and most espe…

This sounds like unjustified FUD. It's not been my experience. A large amount of infrastructure at companies like Google, Amazon, Facebook, Ebay, etc. is written in Java and the code I've seen from those companies is well-engineered. Google Guava stands out as an example of extremely strong style. Apache Hive and Avro (from Facebook) are also clear and not overly complex. I believe you that there are ineffective prog…

> A large amount of infrastructure at companies like Google, Amazon, Facebook, Ebay, etc. is written in Java and the code I've seen from those companies is well-engineered.

Being a big company doesn't imply good Java code. Just look at Lotus Notes, SAP, Eclipse, the whole IntelliJ ecosystem... all slow-as-fuck, resource-eating monsters that have fast, non-Java alternatives that prove that the job can be done in "fast and lean" (except SAP, though. But SAP rants, I tend to get carried away in these).

Re: Why we choose Java instead of a polyglot stack

#73

Post by hibikir » Thu, Jan 21, 2016, 10:45 PM UTC

brianpgordon wrote: post #11

I agree that Java is the best programming language to write web services in right now. But I have to admit that the most threatening counter-argument to using Java in 2016 is that Scala is, to all appearances, a strictly better language. It's similar to Java and does everything Java does, but better- it has type inference, it does away with primitive types and arrays, it has compiler-checked string interpolation, it…

You are right: Scala is a wonderful language crushed by its culture. Not only the DSL love.

And then there's the in-language tribalism. You find people that work/worked in Twitter, that tell you that anything that Typesafe, the company that does most of the development of the language, is not worth using: They have their own stack for everything. Then, you have the Scalaz tribe: They also dislike the standard library, along with the Twitter libraries. And now we have TypeLevel, which splinters from the scalaz group. You don't have one camp: you at least have three or four, and having talked to prominent members of each of those subcultures, good luck ever getting them to try to unify anything: There is much intra tribe hate in public, and it gets even nastier when they are in private.

Having worked with people from each tribe at one point or another, I think that the situation is pretty hopeless, and the community knows it. The best way for Scala programmers to bond is to hate on a tribe that neither of them belongs to!

Just look at the two keynotes in Scala exchange 2015: One by Jessica Kerr, the other by Miles Sabin. Two people that come from very different backgrounds, writing very different code (business scala vs shapeless). But what both were talking about was how far the community has to go to make the language more approachable. And yet, I am pretty sure that the code Miles finds approachable, Jess would find completely unapproachable, while Miles might hate on how Jess doesn't really use enough types.

It's a very unfortunate problem.

Re: Why we choose Java instead of a polyglot stack

#74

Post by rodgerd » Thu, Jan 21, 2016, 10:47 PM UTC

Freak_NL wrote: post #49

throwaway437812 wrote: post #45

Much of this makes sense, but the main thing that keeps me from using Java is the dark cloud hanging over it, called Oracle.

Could you elaborate on that? With OpenJDK at least the software side of things is pretty much stable and open (in a FOSS sense), so I take you are referring to possible legal ramifications of Oracle's actions?

Legal actions, arsing around with compliance and test suites, generally "being Oracle".

Re: Why we choose Java instead of a polyglot stack

#75

Post by edem » Thu, Jan 21, 2016, 10:55 PM UTC

scott_s wrote: post #28

edem wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary Scala is baroque, its syntax is not following any known pattern. For example if I want to write a recursive function I have to indicate my return parameter type otherwise not. It doesn't matter whether you come from a C background or a Java background...or any background because of this: > def addInt( a:Int, b:Int ) : Int = { > var sum:Int = 0 > sum = a + b > return sum > } You have to relearn how a f…

Function declaration syntax where the return type is last is very common in functional languages. It's even allowed in C++11, because it allows one to define return types that depend on parameter types. An example taken from http://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/language/auto , template auto add(T t, U u) -> decltype(t + u) // return type is type of operator+(T, U) { return t + u; } It's quite a sensible approach, and har…

I see. I was not aware that this kind of syntax was present elsewhere, thanks for pointing it out!

Re: Why we choose Java instead of a polyglot stack

#76

Post by vbezhenar » Thu, Jan 21, 2016, 10:57 PM UTC

Java platform and libraries are very mature and good. Java as a language is not. I suggest to take a look at Kotlin. It uses JVM, it uses Java standard library, but it provides much better language, while keeping simplicity and it's close enough to Java to be a drop-in replacement. And IDE support is excellent, if we are talking about Intellij Idea. Kotlin is really Java++. No reason to choose Java over it.

Another option is Scala, but Kotlin is superior for most projects IMO.

Re: Why we choose Java instead of a polyglot stack

#77

Post by conventionalmem » Thu, Jan 21, 2016, 10:58 PM UTC

nv-vn wrote: post #32

meddlepal wrote: post #5

If you're not picking the JVM in 2016 to build your core services and web applications then you're making a mistake that is going to cost you time and money either upfront in building things that already exist or later down the road when you start to need more performance and your RoR application isn't cutting it anymore. Say what you will about Java the language (I agree it's not particularly "sexy") but the JVM is…

I'm really not a fan of these kinds of blanket statements where you lump everything into "JVM" or "failure". The JVM is a good platform for performance, stability, etc. but it's not the only one. The .NET ecosystem is pretty high up there for performance (and gives you a bit more room for fine tuning) and it easily has some of the best support in the industry (both 1st and 3rd party). And we've all seen success stori…

Agreed, it's crazy that there are engineers in this world that can make blanket statements like this, especially on a site like HN.

There are a lot of great languages/frameworks, and it depends on the needs you have and your team.

(I'm so fatigued by this view I hear so regularly expressed in web dev that "X is the solution to everything" - no, it's very rarely the case)

Re: Why we choose Java instead of a polyglot stack

#78

Post by discreteevent » Thu, Jan 21, 2016, 11:02 PM UTC

fweespeech wrote: post #53

meddlepal wrote: post #5

If you're not picking the JVM in 2016 to build your core services and web applications then you're making a mistake that is going to cost you time and money either upfront in building things that already exist or later down the road when you start to need more performance and your RoR application isn't cutting it anymore. Say what you will about Java the language (I agree it's not particularly "sexy") but the JVM is…

> If you're not picking the JVM in 2016 to build your core services and web applications then you're making a mistake that is going to cost you time and money either upfront in building things that already exist or later down the road when you start to need more performance and your RoR application isn't cutting it anymore. Honestly, unless you are operating on thin margins due to your business structure ... this isn…

Good for you that you are in that kind of business. I've never worked on anything where we didn't need more performance in the end. And when you do need it you need it quick. Having an environment and tools (e.g. top class profilers) that make that possible is often the only way to get it done in time.

Re: Why we choose Java instead of a polyglot stack

#79

Post by davidw » Thu, Jan 21, 2016, 11:14 PM UTC

So, Java guys, what do you recommend if someone wants to have a Rails-like experience where programmer time is more valuable than 'web scale' performance? Say, also that I don't want to have to pay oodles of money for some server with a terabyte of memory to hold the application. Honest question - I haven't kept up with what's happening in Java land, and am curious what you'd recommend for that kind of side-project thing.

Re: Why we choose Java instead of a polyglot stack

#80

Post by evacchi » Thu, Jan 21, 2016, 11:18 PM UTC

lmm wrote: post #17

burntcookie90 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd suggest taking a look at kotlin as well

Kotlin has most of the complexity of Scala, and very little of the power. If you want a clean language that offers Scala-like functionality, Ceylon is the one to watch.

could you expand further on this? I actually believe Kotlin to be much simpler than Scala