Drupal: 15 years old • Hacker News Board

Re: Drupal: 15 years old

#41

Post by foolinaround » Sat, Jan 16, 2016, 9:32 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #19

rjknight wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is pretty much the epitome of bad design. It creates a nightmare data model. The only advantage is that you can get away with this in the most brain-dead way possible when adding/removing fields without having to create a proper migration. That's a pretty big advantage if you're an end-user who doesn't know how to create migrations. Yeah, you wouldn't do it that way if you were writing the code from scratch yo…

> That's a pretty big advantage if you're an end-user who doesn't know how to create migrations. Such a migration should be created by drupal, not by the end-user in a proper design, you know, like everybody else does it. > The whole point is that you shouldn't be poking around in the DB most of the time (I will admit that this is a principle frequently violated). DB's tend to become the place to hook into other syst…

If you were to pick a CMS, which one would you pick?

Now, please tell us how this one would be an improvement over drupal for the newbie user.

Re: Drupal: 15 years old

#42

Post by audessuscest » Sat, Jan 16, 2016, 9:40 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #39

audessuscest wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quantity is not quality... You could perfectly dont understand the Drupal core and still build billion Drupal site. And after reading your critics, you seem to really don't understand how Drupal entities work.

You keep making sweeping statements about both drupal and about me without providing a single bit of information to the discussion, if you have factual information to contribute about why what I say is inaccurate I'm all ears. I've provided that (1) drupal is inefficient, (2) drupal sucks when it comes to backwards compatibility, (3) that drupal has a totally broken approach when it comes to data base schema design a…

1. Symfony, Lavarel are not CMS

2. Drupal 8 is built on top of Symfony2

3. Saying Drupal is self centered show that you don't know Drupal community (They team up with Symfony and follow now many Symfony paradigm for example...)

4. Sorry but saying Drupal has a totally broken data model is very exaggerate, you may not like it, you can have critics, but it's a perfectly valid model, which works perfectly.

5. You don't provide much information either...

6. All cms/framework with a large module ecosystem have trouble with backward compatibilty, Drupal is not the worst. For example WP have trouble with compatibily between module for the same version of WP. Drupal don't have this issue because their guidelines are strict.

7. Drupal is loosing ground to Joomla ? For someone with high standard, it's funny that you mention Joomla and WP as better replacement to Drupal. Very funny. Because, yes, I know these alternatives and they are really poorly designed and not just the data model (I dont know why you said I don't know alternatives...)

With all my love and respect.

Re: Drupal: 15 years old

#43

Post by technion » Sun, Jan 17, 2016, 12:57 AM UTC

rvense wrote: post #12

jacquesm wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the least of the problems. Drupal creates tables willy-nilly and hits a very large number of them for a single page request.

I've seen a thousand request for a single page when logged in as administrator (since the menu structure for the admin interface comes from the database as well). I talk about this a lot and I must admit I rarely use words as diplomatic as naive...

To be fair, this is on par with, or better than, Wordpress.

Re: Drupal: 15 years old

#44

Post by mercer » Mon, Jan 18, 2016, 2:57 PM UTC

noir_lord wrote: post #30

jacquesm wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed with everything you wrote here, I should have been more precise.

It's the internet, it largely doesn't matter how precise you are someone will find a way to correct you somehow ;). That said your advice on using Symfony2 or something else over Drupal is extremely valid and I can say that as I used Drupal for a couple of years and ran into all the usual issues (worked fine for non-logged in, fell over with a few hundred logged in users), as a nice way to generate largely static con…

Oh good lord... I thought my Drupal sites were fine until for one of them it required a small amount of logged-in users. Performance was terrible so I enabled some dev module to see what was going on. I was faced with a ridiculous amount of queries, each of full of joins.

I now don't use Drupal anymore, although I might occasionally whip it out for a site that only requires a few admins to log in...

Re: Drupal: 15 years old

#45

Post by ajsalminen » Mon, Jan 18, 2016, 9:01 PM UTC

mercer wrote: post #44

noir_lord wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the internet, it largely doesn't matter how precise you are someone will find a way to correct you somehow ;). That said your advice on using Symfony2 or something else over Drupal is extremely valid and I can say that as I used Drupal for a couple of years and ran into all the usual issues (worked fine for non-logged in, fell over with a few hundred logged in users), as a nice way to generate largely static con…

Oh good lord... I thought my Drupal sites were fine until for one of them it required a small amount of logged-in users. Performance was terrible so I enabled some dev module to see what was going on. I was faced with a ridiculous amount of queries, each of full of joins. I now don't use Drupal anymore, although I might occasionally whip it out for a site that only requires a few admins to log in...

One of the major improvements in Drupal 8 is caching that works for logged in users.

Re: Drupal: 15 years old

#46

Post by delta9 » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 12:32 PM UTC

monk_e_boy wrote: post #22

aikah wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's the price of a naive approach to maintaining a data model programmatically Are you talking about their node system ?

You should make a view that searches some nodes for a custom field. Wow, it hits the database A LOT.

You shouldn't do that, you should use Solr

Re: Drupal: 15 years old

#47

Post by mercer » Wed, Jan 20, 2016, 7:58 AM UTC

ajsalminen wrote: post #45

mercer wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh good lord... I thought my Drupal sites were fine until for one of them it required a small amount of logged-in users. Performance was terrible so I enabled some dev module to see what was going on. I was faced with a ridiculous amount of queries, each of full of joins. I now don't use Drupal anymore, although I might occasionally whip it out for a site that only requires a few admins to log in...

One of the major improvements in Drupal 8 is caching that works for logged in users.

That's good to know. Another reason to kick Drupal 8's tires when I have some time!

Re: Drupal: 15 years old

#48

Post by dreamfactory2 » Thu, Jan 21, 2016, 2:01 AM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #11

aikah wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's the price of a naive approach to maintaining a data model programmatically Are you talking about their node system ?

That's the least of the problems. Drupal creates tables willy-nilly and hits a very large number of them for a single page request.

That was a deliberate design choice for Drupal 7. The reasons were:

- Loose coupling. Drupal has been becoming increasingly API-centric and storage engine agnostic. Focusing on the physical storage schema for a DB engine misses the point of the architecture.

- Performance(!) Supports schema changes on existing large datasets (migrations are only starting to appear in Drupal 8, and elsewhere bring their own complexities when you want zero downtime). Unsurprisingly there was some gnashing of teeth when this 'table per field' approach was introduced and as a result it was decided to build denormalized read layers on top (materialised views and bundles). However, it turned out that they showed no perf improvement over Drupal's object caching whilst adding complexity to the design and were therefore abandoned. (The fact that this performs as well as materialised views speaks very positively of Drupal's architecture and code quality.)

- Multiple revisions of any data.

- Multilingual capabilities.

- Support of tree type data models.

https://www.drupal.org/node/1035804#comment-6860070

On the whole I would call this a thoughtful and reasonable design choice, and one that is supported by real-world implementation on millions of sites at all scales.