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Apple Car Challenges: Sobering Thoughts

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Re: Apple Car Challenges: Sobering Thoughts

#51

Post by dsr_ »

yuhong wrote: post #44
gutnor wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another point to that, is that the default assumption, even for a Tesla is that you can charge it at home during the night. For people living in a flat with car on the street, that means going to a charging station on a regular basis for a full charge. That is beyond anxiety, it means planning your life around your car range, instead of the other way around. And with the current availability of charging stations, it…

Yea, but for those that can charge at home, it is better than having to pay a gas station.

Right up until the day that you unexpectedly have to drive somewhere that is (a) at the limit of your range, (b) not accessible otherwise and (c) doesn't have convenient chargers.

This is interestingly close to the Kozmo/PeaPod/whatever on-demand grocery delivery problem: as long as you only have to service high population densities, you can make a profit. As soon as you try to handle suburbs, the costs of providing service increase at a rate larger than the square of the radius you are trying to serve - and nobody wants to pay that, and the urban core won't subsidize the suburban outliers until you've already dominated the market.

Re: Apple Car Challenges: Sobering Thoughts

#52

Post by nacs »

gutnor wrote: post #28
phkahler wrote: post #5

I hate the term "range anxiety". The industry used to throw it around all the time. That term shifts the blame from the product to the customer. The issue is that a vehicle with a range under 100 miles is not that useful. I could drive a car like that to work most days, but I could not make a significant deviation - to go to another work facility, customer or supplier site, or even to see a friend for dinner after wo…

Another point to that, is that the default assumption, even for a Tesla is that you can charge it at home during the night. For people living in a flat with car on the street, that means going to a charging station on a regular basis for a full charge. That is beyond anxiety, it means planning your life around your car range, instead of the other way around. And with the current availability of charging stations, it…

How many people living in a flat with no garage own a > $70-100K car?

It seems to me like people who're buying a car in that price range would either own a house or at least have access to a garage.

Re: Apple Car Challenges: Sobering Thoughts

#53

Post by millstone »

at-fates-hands wrote: post #17

At what point are companies going to give up on electric and look at other possible alternatives like hydro or something nobody has come up with like converting trash to renewable energy? I still have issues with the environmental impact with electric fuel cell manufacturing and recycling. It's horrible on the environment and the recycling issues (hell, we still have problems just recycling plastics) cause me to doub…

Err, how would a hydro powered car work, without a battery?

> In a 2013 report, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency’s Design for the Environment program concluded that batteries using nickel and cobalt, like lithium-ion batteries, have the “highest potential for environmental impacts”

The highest potential for environmental impact among current Li-ion battery chemistries. This chemistry is currently best-in-class for energy storage, but it is an area of very active research. For example, lithium-air batteries hold promise for more energy storage with a carbon cathode.

Of course grid power is also moving to renewables.

Re: Apple Car Challenges: Sobering Thoughts

#54

Post by dangrossman »

kozak wrote: post #7
phkahler wrote: post #5

I hate the term "range anxiety". The industry used to throw it around all the time. That term shifts the blame from the product to the customer. The issue is that a vehicle with a range under 100 miles is not that useful. I could drive a car like that to work most days, but I could not make a significant deviation - to go to another work facility, customer or supplier site, or even to see a friend for dinner after wo…

I live in a climate where you can potentially get stuck in the snow for few hours when going between cities (that happens maybe once per year, but today is exactly such a day, for example). In a gasoline car you would at least stay warm while waiting for the road to be unblocked. With an electric car, this might easily turn into a survival situation.

> In a gasoline car you would at least stay warm while waiting for the road to be unblocked. With an electric car, this might easily turn into a survival situation.

Actually, a Tesla would keep you warm while waiting for longer than your gasoline car.

A 2 liter engine, idling at 700 rpm, will consume about .32 gallons per hour. A 15 gallon tank then gives you 46 hours of heat.

A 85 kilowatt hour battery pack can run a 1000 watt cabin heater for 85 hours. That's almost twice as long.

If you travelled 50 miles from home before getting stuck, the gasoline car will have 40 hours of heating time left, and the EV will have 68 hours of heating time left.

Re: Apple Car Challenges: Sobering Thoughts

#55

Post by falcolas »

dangrossman wrote: post #49
falcolas wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A fully charged Model S, operating at peak capacity. When it has to heat the battery pack, the interior, and has already been driven for upwards of 100 miles (plus heating), those numbers will significantly smaller. Worse would be the anxiety of retaining enough charge to get the car the remaining miles to your destination once un-stuck.

After 100 miles plus heating, it's got 50 kWh left in the battery. That'll get you another 147 miles driving with the heat on. Sitting in traffic, for hours upon hours, is really not a problem for an EV. The interior and battery pack heaters only use 1.5 kilowatts per hour or so. If you drive 100 miles with the heat on, get stuck in the snow for an epic rescue time of 8 hours, your range is only decreased by 35 miles…

It is, if you still have 80 miles to go in weather which got you stuck in the first place.

I live in Montana, so such trips are common, not exceptional. Having a pass close in front of you (or while you're on it) is not terribly exceptional either.

Re: Apple Car Challenges: Sobering Thoughts

#56

Post by buro9 »

nacs wrote: post #52
gutnor wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another point to that, is that the default assumption, even for a Tesla is that you can charge it at home during the night. For people living in a flat with car on the street, that means going to a charging station on a regular basis for a full charge. That is beyond anxiety, it means planning your life around your car range, instead of the other way around. And with the current availability of charging stations, it…

How many people living in a flat with no garage own a > $70-100K car? It seems to me like people who're buying a car in that price range would either own a house or at least have access to a garage.

That sounds like a very US view.

It's fairly common in London to not have a garage, and even if you do then there is unlikely to be any power there. Most likely is on-street parking, and that's assuming you're not in a flat.

Re: Apple Car Challenges: Sobering Thoughts

#57

Post by dangrossman »

falcolas wrote: post #55
dangrossman wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After 100 miles plus heating, it's got 50 kWh left in the battery. That'll get you another 147 miles driving with the heat on. Sitting in traffic, for hours upon hours, is really not a problem for an EV. The interior and battery pack heaters only use 1.5 kilowatts per hour or so. If you drive 100 miles with the heat on, get stuck in the snow for an epic rescue time of 8 hours, your range is only decreased by 35 miles…

It is, if you still have 80 miles to go in weather which got you stuck in the first place. I live in Montana, so such trips are common, not exceptional. Having a pass close in front of you (or while you're on it) is not terribly exceptional either.

Is it? Then you definitely wouldn't want to make this trip in a traditional gasoline car.

Two drivers leave on this trip you described with the same fuel in the tank (250 miles worth), one in a Tesla and one in a Toyota. Both travel 100 miles before getting stuck. Both have to wait 8 hours in the cold on a closed road. Both have 80 miles to go.

The difference is, the Tesla has 112 miles of range left at that point, and the Toyota only has 86. It consumed 2.56 gallons of gas idling to run the heat, a much larger percentage of its overall fuel than the Tesla.

Assuming neither driver planned to run out of fuel on this trip (since 360 miles is beyond the range of either vehicle), both are within range of either a gas station or a charging station. They're all along the length of I90 and I15 in Montana. The Tesla has a larger margin of error for detours and closed roads on the way.

Re: Apple Car Challenges: Sobering Thoughts

#58

Post by samstave »

nacs wrote: post #52
gutnor wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another point to that, is that the default assumption, even for a Tesla is that you can charge it at home during the night. For people living in a flat with car on the street, that means going to a charging station on a regular basis for a full charge. That is beyond anxiety, it means planning your life around your car range, instead of the other way around. And with the current availability of charging stations, it…

How many people living in a flat with no garage own a > $70-100K car? It seems to me like people who're buying a car in that price range would either own a house or at least have access to a garage.

Bullshit, just go around any single place in san Francisco.

Even just thinking of my brother in law and his wife both make $150k+ live in a condo in sf and even with their garage, they would not be able to install power at their parking spots.

Re: Apple Car Challenges: Sobering Thoughts

#59

Post by samstave »

monk_e_boy wrote: post #36
gutnor wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another point to that, is that the default assumption, even for a Tesla is that you can charge it at home during the night. For people living in a flat with car on the street, that means going to a charging station on a regular basis for a full charge. That is beyond anxiety, it means planning your life around your car range, instead of the other way around. And with the current availability of charging stations, it…

I think this is where self driving, electric, Uber cars will rescue us. The car will be owned by someone who has plenty of charging stations and it'll simply appear at my door 5 minutes before I need to leave for work.

Welcome to Jonny cab!

Re: Apple Car Challenges: Sobering Thoughts

#60

Post by ams6110 »

jonknee wrote: post #48
therein wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you live in an area with lots of Superchargers or if your works place has electric car charging stations. I feel like that's the reason why so many people that I work with get Teslas.

It's probably more likely that you work with a lot of high-income males who are interested in the technology of Tesla and the prestige of owning one.

I live in an area where electric vehicles (and particularly Teslas) are very uncommon. The couple of people I know of who own Teslas fit your description exactly. They are status symbols and playthings, like any other expensive high-line car (and I'm not saying that's a bad thing, just the reality).
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