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Apple Car Challenges: Sobering Thoughts

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Re: Apple Car Challenges: Sobering Thoughts

#31

Post by dangrossman »

recursive wrote: post #24
beambot wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about running the heater to stay alive and defrosted?

10 horsepower is more than 7 kilowatts of output. I think a typical car heater uses much less than this. Perhaps someone knows more precise figures.

An EV essentially runs electric space heaters, since there's no engine block to steal waste heat from. It doesn't take a lot to heat a small enclosed space like a car interior. My Leaf uses anywhere from 1000 to 3000 watts to run heat, mostly towards the low end after it's warmed up.

http://imgur.com/smzvL8C

For reference, the battery pack is 24kWh, so it could theoretically run the heater while stuck on a road for 24 hours straight. A Model S with a 85kWh battery pack could keep the heat on for over 3 days.

Re: Apple Car Challenges: Sobering Thoughts

#32

Post by vonmoltke »

seivan wrote: post #9
FreedomToCreate wrote: post #6

Apple is a consumer electronics company. They build focused hardware with software that they patch over time. Cars don't work like that. Cars are like building 100 products into one thing. Fine tuning every aspect of there design is incredibly difficult and is reflected in cost. A software for cars is completely different. For Apple to completely commit to cars, the dynamic within its culture will have to radically c…

Wifi, two cameras one with a flash, finger-print, GPS, gyro, accelerometer, display, force-sensitive touch displays, sensors for display, cell-reception, in/out microphone ports, co-motion processor, bluetooth, speakers, etc etc. Not to mention a ton of software. Those are several products in one. Wether or not they actually build and design everything themselves is irrelevant. Not all car companies makes everything…

The difference is the number of engineering disciplines involved. A smartphone, as complex as it is, still requires a relatively narrow set of disciplines compared to an automobile.

Systems engineering was basically created by the auto and aerospace industries for this reason. It coordinates all these disparate disciplines into a single, cohesive effort. What I have seen of systems engineering[1] in SV does not leave me with the confidence that most of those companies will actually succeed beyond some science experiments. At least, not the companies that haven't started out as fundamentally car companies like Tesla did.

[1] Real systems engineering, not glorified, overworked sysadmins

Re: Apple Car Challenges: Sobering Thoughts

#33

Post by kozak »

rhino369 wrote: post #22
phkahler wrote: post #5

I hate the term "range anxiety". The industry used to throw it around all the time. That term shifts the blame from the product to the customer. The issue is that a vehicle with a range under 100 miles is not that useful. I could drive a car like that to work most days, but I could not make a significant deviation - to go to another work facility, customer or supplier site, or even to see a friend for dinner after wo…

"Range anxiety" is why I like the drivetrain in the Volt.

The so-called "BMW i3 with Range Extender" is a "more true" range-extended battery electric vehicle. Unlike the Volt, the BMW doesn't have any mechanic connection between its wheels and the gasoline engine, and the gasoline engine is properly underpowered not to be considered a primary source of propulsion.

Re: Apple Car Challenges: Sobering Thoughts

#34

Post by saosebastiao »

Starting from scratch is such a monumental feat. Why wouldn't Apple just use it's cash reserves and buy out an existing car maker? They could literally buy pretty much any automaker they want, why not start with something like Fiat Chrysler, for a bargain basement price of $10B?

I'm a supply chain guy. I work for a company with one of the top peer-rated supply chains in the world and Apple is still so far ahead of us that it isn't even funny. Apple could, with minimal comparative effort (as in, easier than any other company, not easily), translate their manufacturing supply chain knowledge towards automotive manufacturing and optimize it to the point of absurd superiority over every other automaker out there. That alone could change the profitability of the company significantly toward self-sustainability within a matter of a 3-4 years. Throw in a well funded software and hardware research division, poach the top specialized auto manufacturing talent, and you have a recipe for the next Toyota or (forgive the faux pas) VW.

But if you start from scratch, you are going to be 10 years away from making a dent in the market, regardless of how much expertise you have.

Re: Apple Car Challenges: Sobering Thoughts

#35

Post by ploxiln »

iambateman wrote: post #8

I think people forget Tim Cook's background in supply chain. He is one of the most experienced "process-oriented" managers in the world, backed up by $203 billion in cash, with a reputation for lifestyle products and a strong team. I don't think he has underestimated the challenge.

While that's true, this blog post points out that to make a dent in the market, you need some factories. You can't just have Foxconn assemble your cars with key parts from Samsung. I don't think Apple can pull a rabbit out of a hat with a surprise "special announcement" of an Apple Car, nor can they make a surprise pre-announcement 6 or even 12 months before availability of a car... it's going to be pretty obvious that they're building a car factory a couple years before anyone can buy one. And we don't see that yet.

Re: Apple Car Challenges: Sobering Thoughts

#36

Post by monk_e_boy »

gutnor wrote: post #28
phkahler wrote: post #5

I hate the term "range anxiety". The industry used to throw it around all the time. That term shifts the blame from the product to the customer. The issue is that a vehicle with a range under 100 miles is not that useful. I could drive a car like that to work most days, but I could not make a significant deviation - to go to another work facility, customer or supplier site, or even to see a friend for dinner after wo…

Another point to that, is that the default assumption, even for a Tesla is that you can charge it at home during the night. For people living in a flat with car on the street, that means going to a charging station on a regular basis for a full charge. That is beyond anxiety, it means planning your life around your car range, instead of the other way around. And with the current availability of charging stations, it…

I think this is where self driving, electric, Uber cars will rescue us. The car will be owned by someone who has plenty of charging stations and it'll simply appear at my door 5 minutes before I need to leave for work.

Re: Apple Car Challenges: Sobering Thoughts

#37

Post by therein »

gutnor wrote: post #28
phkahler wrote: post #5

I hate the term "range anxiety". The industry used to throw it around all the time. That term shifts the blame from the product to the customer. The issue is that a vehicle with a range under 100 miles is not that useful. I could drive a car like that to work most days, but I could not make a significant deviation - to go to another work facility, customer or supplier site, or even to see a friend for dinner after wo…

Another point to that, is that the default assumption, even for a Tesla is that you can charge it at home during the night. For people living in a flat with car on the street, that means going to a charging station on a regular basis for a full charge. That is beyond anxiety, it means planning your life around your car range, instead of the other way around. And with the current availability of charging stations, it…

Unless you live in an area with lots of Superchargers or if your works place has electric car charging stations. I feel like that's the reason why so many people that I work with get Teslas.

Re: Apple Car Challenges: Sobering Thoughts

#39

Post by OopsCriticality »

therein wrote: post #37
gutnor wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another point to that, is that the default assumption, even for a Tesla is that you can charge it at home during the night. For people living in a flat with car on the street, that means going to a charging station on a regular basis for a full charge. That is beyond anxiety, it means planning your life around your car range, instead of the other way around. And with the current availability of charging stations, it…

Unless you live in an area with lots of Superchargers or if your works place has electric car charging stations. I feel like that's the reason why so many people that I work with get Teslas.

I thought Tesla sent out letters to people using Superchargers for daily charging, clarifying that they were intended for long-distance travel.

Re: Apple Car Challenges: Sobering Thoughts

#40

Post by monk_e_boy »

iambateman wrote: post #8

I think people forget Tim Cook's background in supply chain. He is one of the most experienced "process-oriented" managers in the world, backed up by $203 billion in cash, with a reputation for lifestyle products and a strong team. I don't think he has underestimated the challenge.

For Apple, they must be thinking about cars vs other things. Maybe electric cars are a great idea, but VR maybe a much better idea (seeing as a VR headset is basically two iPohnes glued together)
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