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C or C++ for my game engine?

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Re: C or C++ for my game engine?

#11

Post by microcolonel »

fizixer wrote: post #4

> I have to choose between writing duplicated code, writing a code generator, or tedious macro stuff for generic code. Code-generation all the way. Use an expressive language like python/lua/tcl/lisp/scheme to work on a higher layer than C. Two-language programming (one GC scripting, the other C) beats the heck out of C++, in terms of best of both worlds: expressivity in higher layer, performance in lower layer. C++…

I generally support this approach. I have liked working with C and chibi-scheme. Though I think depending on the size of your game logic, it may make little sense to even bother with a scripting language.

There are real costs to building the abstractions needed in order to make a useful scripting environment.

Re: C or C++ for my game engine?

#12

Post by Rusky »

nine_k wrote: post #9

I'd hazard to offer Rust :) Someone has to.

The author does mention Rust:

> New and hip GC'd languages don't care about the priorities efficient game engine code has. Safety-enforcing languages like Rust are going somewhat off already by definition, as they're focusing primarily on safety, which is not the focus for most game code.

However, I disagree with this. Rust does enforce safety, but once you have a feel for how the borrow checker works (which isn't hard at all coming from C or C++), it fades into the background. The real benefits of Rust for games are the build system, the module system, affine/linear types, and all the various syntactic features like pattern matching and expression-based control structures that make it way less crufty to read and write than C or C++.

Rust's biggest weakness for game dev (again) isn't the enforced safety, but the still-growing ecosystem. There's a few really good low-level libraries (Glium, for example), but if you stray beyond them it turns into a nightmare of writing your own FFI definitions and unsafe glue code.

Re: C or C++ for my game engine?

#13

Post by dahart »

> 5. realize that I shouldn't be using some parts of C++ (exceptions, stdlib)

> 6. start to ponder if I really need even the good parts of C++

This reads like wisdom and maturity to me; unfortunate, but not surprising, that people are quick to judge.

Last game studio I worked at, we wouldn't have given up C++, but there were frequent conversations about its pitfalls and complexity, and quite a few rules and conventions recommending against, out outright prohibiting some C++ practices, exceptions, for example.

Before that, the last film studio I worked at, a bad experience with C++ led them to chuck it (before I got there) and go object oriented C. I learned their style of C and quite liked it. I missed operators and templates a bit, and it felt a little verbose, but I came to really appreciate the simplicity and explicitness.

Sounds like it wasn't an easy choice, but on a solo project that large you have to prioritize what makes you feel the most productive in the long term, and there are always tradeoffs.

Re: C or C++ for my game engine?

#14

Post by Franciscouzo »

gnarbarian wrote: post #6
fizixer wrote: post #4

> I have to choose between writing duplicated code, writing a code generator, or tedious macro stuff for generic code. Code-generation all the way. Use an expressive language like python/lua/tcl/lisp/scheme to work on a higher layer than C. Two-language programming (one GC scripting, the other C) beats the heck out of C++, in terms of best of both worlds: expressivity in higher layer, performance in lower layer. C++…

Script it out in python then replace the hot spots with c!

Or better yet, Lua!

Re: C or C++ for my game engine?

#15

Post by jeffdavis »

I can't help but think the author would benefit from some of the philosophy of James Hague (a game programmer):

http://prog21.dadgum.com/

Don't focus too much on technology, disconnected from what people (including you) might want to actually use. Otherwise you will not get the real inspirations -- even purely technical inspirations -- that come from something that you intend to use.

Re: C or C++ for my game engine?

#16

Post by kitsunesoba »

Apocryphon wrote: post #7

Has anyone attempted using Objective-C for game development outside of iOS gaming? It'd be interesting using it as an OO language substitute for C++.

I’m sure there’s been Mac games written in Objective-C, but there are certainly no cross-platform games written in it because vital bits of Objective-C aren’t actually part of Objective-C; instead, they’re part of the Foundation framework in OS X and iOS. You can compile Objective-C on whatever platform you like through GCC but you’re going to have to write your own memory management, allocation, etc among other things in order to do so. That said, you might be able to write a cross-platform game through open source Foundation/AppKit implementations like GNUStep and Cocotron, but keep in mind that they implement a version of Foundation that’s several versions behind now.

The next closest thing is probably Swift alongside Apple’s FOSS reimplementation of Foundation for Swift, though I don’t know how well Swift works for development with OpenGL and such.

Re: C or C++ for my game engine?

#18

Post by dllthomas »

Rusky wrote: post #12
nine_k wrote: post #9

I'd hazard to offer Rust :) Someone has to.

The author does mention Rust: > New and hip GC'd languages don't care about the priorities efficient game engine code has. Safety-enforcing languages like Rust are going somewhat off already by definition, as they're focusing primarily on safety, which is not the focus for most game code. However, I disagree with this. Rust does enforce safety, but once you have a feel for how the borrow checker works (which isn't ha…

Right. The last ultra-performance-oriented work I did (in C) I'd have loved affine types and a borrow checker. Used right, these kinds of tools not only don't get in the way (as you note) but prove tremendously useful when you need to refactor.

Re: C or C++ for my game engine?

#20

Post by gaze »

gnarbarian wrote: post #6
fizixer wrote: post #4

> I have to choose between writing duplicated code, writing a code generator, or tedious macro stuff for generic code. Code-generation all the way. Use an expressive language like python/lua/tcl/lisp/scheme to work on a higher layer than C. Two-language programming (one GC scripting, the other C) beats the heck out of C++, in terms of best of both worlds: expressivity in higher layer, performance in lower layer. C++…

Script it out in python then replace the hot spots with c!

Passing through the pile of fun that is the c ffi
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