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Is Express.js dying?

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Re: Is Express.js dying?

#21

Post by JustSomeNobody »

michaelmcmillan wrote: post #6

Frameworks die. It is a fact. Death in this sense means discontinued support and development. It is not difficult to see how this can render any software that depends on a 'dead' framework unstable or even broken with time. I have experienced exactly this multiple times. In fact, I am extremely aware of this when I start a new project. Perhaps especially when I am dealing with frameworks like Express, Django or Ruby…

While I realize it may not be the case here, discontinued development doesn't necessarily mean death. Sometimes it means "done". I don't think enough developers get that.

Re: Is Express.js dying?

#22

Post by michaelmcmillan »

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #21
michaelmcmillan wrote: post #6

Frameworks die. It is a fact. Death in this sense means discontinued support and development. It is not difficult to see how this can render any software that depends on a 'dead' framework unstable or even broken with time. I have experienced exactly this multiple times. In fact, I am extremely aware of this when I start a new project. Perhaps especially when I am dealing with frameworks like Express, Django or Ruby…

While I realize it may not be the case here, discontinued development doesn't necessarily mean death. Sometimes it means "done". I don't think enough developers get that.

That assumes that protocols and best practices does not change. Not to mention the dependencies the framework relies on.

Re: Is Express.js dying?

#23

Post by heyadayo »

The thread actually represents a discussion between the most active maintainer (dougwilson) and various employees of IBM who now own and oversee the project, with a few confused third parties chiming in.

It looks like IBM is making some predictable mistakes, which have disillusioned dougwilson to some large extent. Simultaneously they are being fairly inflexible at fixing those mistakes and ultimately forcing abandonment, at least by dougwilson. My prediction:

1) IBM continues with the typical corporate policies which are probably not great for the sort of OSS project that involves independent contributors

2) dougwilson leaves permanently

3) the project sort of wallows a bit

4) IBM puts some resources on it, and claims it all worked out.

As to #4, they'll be sort of correct, assuming the goal was to see resources and progress on express. They'll be wrong if the goal was to properly maintain an open source community around the project.

NOTE: I don't know anything about this, but I've seen this play out many times before. I chimed in here because the other comments in this thread seem to be wildly off topic given the content of the github discussion.

Re: Is Express.js dying?

#24

Post by nailer »

heyadayo wrote: post #23

The thread actually represents a discussion between the most active maintainer (dougwilson) and various employees of IBM who now own and oversee the project, with a few confused third parties chiming in. It looks like IBM is making some predictable mistakes, which have disillusioned dougwilson to some large extent. Simultaneously they are being fairly inflexible at fixing those mistakes and ultimately forcing abandon…

This happened with node-inspector for a while: StrongLoop became the official sponsor, and basic stuff like 'var x = 1; console.log(x)' returning undefined was left unfixed for years while the company simultaneously used it as advertising for how great their node contributions were.

Re: Is Express.js dying?

#25

Post by onestone »

LukeB_UK wrote: post #13
niftylettuce wrote: post #4

Just use koa@next, it's awesome. ES6/ES7 with Babel, Flowconfig, and more.

Another good alternative is Hapi: http://hapijs.com/

Hapi might be an alternative to Express (both are outdated callback-style frameworks), but it's in no way an alternative to Koa.

Re: Is Express.js dying?

#26

Post by matwood »

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #21
michaelmcmillan wrote: post #6

Frameworks die. It is a fact. Death in this sense means discontinued support and development. It is not difficult to see how this can render any software that depends on a 'dead' framework unstable or even broken with time. I have experienced exactly this multiple times. In fact, I am extremely aware of this when I start a new project. Perhaps especially when I am dealing with frameworks like Express, Django or Ruby…

While I realize it may not be the case here, discontinued development doesn't necessarily mean death. Sometimes it means "done". I don't think enough developers get that.

Software can only be done if the environment it runs in remains static. Any software dealing with the web can never be done as the environment it runs in is constantly evolving.

Re: Is Express.js dying?

#27

Post by creamyhorror »

heyadayo wrote: post #23

The thread actually represents a discussion between the most active maintainer (dougwilson) and various employees of IBM who now own and oversee the project, with a few confused third parties chiming in. It looks like IBM is making some predictable mistakes, which have disillusioned dougwilson to some large extent. Simultaneously they are being fairly inflexible at fixing those mistakes and ultimately forcing abandon…

Here's some history, from what I've read. The original discussion of the transfer of the Express repo's ownership to Strongloop occurred here in June 2014:

https://github.com/strongloop/express/issues/2264

Back then, many in the community were surprised by the sponsorship (sale?) of the project and called for the repo to be transferred to the Expressjs org instead. So the question of ownership has been a long-running issue.

Now the ownership/involvement seems to have passed from Strongloop to their acquirer IBM. We're just seeing Doug/the community reprise the same issue with the new owners.

Doug (and presumably other third-party contributors) naturally won't want to be the main contributors to a project owned by a company, so the IBM guys will probably have to take over development & maintenance no matter what. (Barring them giving the project back to the organisation.) Chance of a fork too.

I guess a shared governance model is needed here, to get all parties aligned again.

Re: Is Express.js dying?

#28

Post by bhouston »

Pull an io.js, fork it and publicize the fork as the maintain version for active contributors and then if IBM/Strongloop step up you can re-merge in.

I do think there is increased competition though as well from other frameworks.

Re: Is Express.js dying?

#29

Post by bhouston »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #14
AustinG08 wrote: post #7

I've been building an app using Express over the past 9 months and this gives me pause. It seems like IBM wants to have its cake and eat it too. Should be interesting to see how it all plays out, but is building an app on Express a liability? I have been contemplating switching to hapi, maybe this is a good time to explore that option.

What's giving you pause? According to the link, Express is undergoing extensive and active development...

Actually the main dev, dougwilson, finishes his post with this:

"I continue to work in community-owned organizations on GitHub, and if Express were to ever join a community org like "expressjs", I may be back."

Yikes.

Re: Is Express.js dying?

#30

Post by jnbiche »

DiabloD3 wrote: post #16
ctmkpp wrote: post #9

Clickbait. Express.js is not dying. At all. It is being very much actively worked on by some of the hardest working maintainers and contributors. Express.js is actually a combination of various modules. If you want to see the work being done, go to those individual modules.

I actually have to agree with this. It seems like some semi-political debate about how one guy left and they don't like the direction the project is headed, but it is clearly not dying. I've flagged it for mod review, I'm not sure if this should be on the front page, it doesn't seem like it meets the requirements for HN.

Please don't flag stuff like this. You're treating HNers like children. Lots of us use frameworks/libraries like Express for major projects, so it's important we see critical project sustainability information like this. And we can figure it out ourselves.

If you don't think it's front-page worthy, then just don't upvote. Flagging is meant for off-topic or spam, which this is clearly not.

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