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Bitcoin Is Dead, Long Live Bitcoin

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Re: Bitcoin Is Dead, Long Live Bitcoin

#191
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it an issue? Of course you could spend millions to buy mining hardware. The issue in bitcoin is more that you spend millions on novel mining hardware nobody else has. If your hashing function is CPU or GPU friendly, suddenly everyone in the economy has hardware capable of potentially mining your crytocurrency. The problem with bitcoin is that those hundred million dollar datacenters are the only places top of the…

> Is it an issue? Conundrum? Regardless, it's unsolvable, and I do empathize with the people who complain or offer their own (non)solutions. > If they were just GPU cluster datacenters, despite their scale, they still would not compete with the distributed power of millions of home users desktops to as much a ludicrous degree as modern ASIC miners are in the Bitcoin space. Do you suggest efficiencies of scale don't a…

> the majority of the hashing rate with high efficiency rigs in well-connected datacenters with low priced electricity.

The only time this is economically viable is when you both have a large enough economy and when your marginal hashrate gains over the swarm are significant enough to invest in.

My point is that if your algorithm is CPU / GPU favored, of course you can make specialized hardware, but as long as the performance gap isn't the multiple orders of magnitude modern bitcoin ASICs get over generic computers it takes significantly more money - and here is the key point - in relation to the value of the economy you are taking over to do so. Where it could cost 100 million to build a bitcoin miner datacenter that can immediately seize 30% of the hashing power on the network, your 100 million datacenter on an scrypt network can probably only seize 10-15% because there is much higher normalized mining participation by end users. It means it would cost you a lot more to get a 51% hashing oligopoly, and for the people making business decisions on if they want to spend a billion dollars doing so they will look at the market cap of the economy they are trying to usurp and realize its not a profitable venture.

My point is that there is also a degree of benefit in how consumer practical the mining algorithms are and thus how much less of a dramatic leap in performance custom ASICs would be. If you have algorithms that do not see the leagues of performance difference between custom hardware and general computers, your required investment for the same effective control are much higher, potentially to the point of fiscal unviability, but even if not that your margins would be slimmer and your opportunity cost would dissuade you more from doing it.

The mining superclusters of bitcoin only emerge because of how much potential revenue there is from doing so - fab a few thousand custom ASICs and you suddenly control a huge chunk of total mining power, because nobodies personal computers can even come close to competing. If you want working distributed mining everyone needs to already have viable mining hardware from the start, ie, the computer on their desk.

Re: Bitcoin Is Dead, Long Live Bitcoin

#192
post #92

Back in 2009 when I was getting into bitcoin, it was widely described as a "stateless currency" and not just an alternative to Visa or credit cards. Having a background in economics, bitcoin looked to me like a truly revolutionary technology and if it was adopted en masse would change politics forever. The problem however is that a nation's currency is arguably the primary source of it's sovereignty. Whomever control…

> Back in 2009 when I was getting into bitcoin, it was widely described as a "stateless currency" and not just an alternative to Visa or credit cards. Having a background in economics, bitcoin looked to me like a truly revolutionary technology and if it was adopted en masse would change politics forever. No state or political entity will EVER support en masse a currency that it does not control and/or is NOT backed b…

>what would you have them do, block ISP traffic?

Forbid businesses from accepting BTC. It's that simple.

Re: Bitcoin Is Dead, Long Live Bitcoin

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually the US Dollar is inflationary, which means those who hoard US Dollars lose out in the long term. You lose approximately 2% to 3% depending on how well the Fed actually hits its benchmarks. BTC on the other hand is inflationary, due to the (artificial) cap of 21 Million BTC. In any case, inflationary vs deflationary is a moot point. Too much of either side is bad. The important part is price consistency , whi…

Yeah, people don't hoard us dollars, they hoard T bills and other obfuscated forms of us dollar debt.

Considering that T-Bills have a return of 0.2% right now, that still loses to inflation.

IE: If you actually want to make money, you have to go equities or start up a company.

Re: Bitcoin Is Dead, Long Live Bitcoin

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. The Fed or CBRC may not be perfect with their policies, but at least they're beneficially aligned with the future and stability of their currency (rather than a group of rational self-interested actors).

"they're beneficially aligned with the future" how's that divide between the rich and poor going? The fed has been upwardly redistributing wealth especially dramatically for the last 40 years since when the Nixon closed the gold window. I suppose if you think creating a kleptocratic state is beneficial for the future, then your statement rings true.

Huh, the rich/poor divide in bitcoinland is way worse than in the real world, so I am not sure which point you are trying to make.

Re: Bitcoin Is Dead, Long Live Bitcoin

#195
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hasn't signature verification speed been improved significantly since 2014 Pieter Wuille's work in libsecp256k1 promises to improve verification speeds on 64-bit CPUs by as much as 700%, and it's set to be deployed on the network as early as February. This will hopefully be enough of a boost to reasonably process 2MB blocks on a desktop PC. This desktop processing goes very underappreciated by most onlookers. Imagi…

Something seems off here. If a 7x performance increase is only enough for 2MB blocks, does that mean a PC today can only handle And I don't remember seeing anyone call for 20MB blocks. The debate looks more like 1MB vs. 2MB vs. 8MB etc.

First, it would behoove you to run a full node on your desktop PC.

What you will surely find is that maxing out your CPU at 100% for hours on end isn't very fun and isn't necessarily conducive to getting other work done at the same time. This is again to say nothing of the bandwidth requirements, streaming videos or playing games for example may become out of the question depending on the quality of your network connection.

This is to say, at 1MB blocks, full nodes on the desktop are already becoming problematic for some users. The warning signs are as clear as day. What's more, to even get the performance of full nodes on desktop to this level has been a monumental feat and one largely spearheaded by the so called "small blockists" - th efforts of Dr. Adam Back, Gregory Maxwell and Dr. Pieter Wuille have been absolutely essential to making Bitcoin full nodes at least runnable on consumer hardware. For example, Greg Maxwell claims testing an original version 0.1 full node would take upwards of _20 weeks_ to sync fully.

Second, Gavin Andresen originally proposed 20MB blocks starting January 2016, and doubling every two years [1]:

> CPU and storage are cheap these days; one moderately fast CPU can easily keep up with 20 megabytes worth of transactions every ten minutes. > > Twenty megabytes downloaded plus twenty megabytes uploaded every ten minutes is about 170 gigabytes bandwidth usage per month – well within the 4 terabytes/month limit of even the least expensive ChunkHost plan. > > Disk space shouldn’t be an issue very soon– now that blockchain pruning has been implemented, you don’t have to dedicate 30+ gigabytes to store the entire blockchain. > > So it looks to me like the actual out-of-pocket cost of running a full node in a datacenter won’t change with a 20 megabyte maximum block size; it will be on the order of $5 or $10 per month. > > I chose 20MB as a reasonable block size to target because 170 gigabytes per month comfortably fits into the typical 250-300 gigabytes per month data cap– so you can run a full node from home on a “pretty good” broadband plan.

That we now see Gavin entertaining a much lesser fork - to 2MB instead of his previously claimed "safe" 20MB - speaks volumes about the severity of this issue.

Now, the Bitcoin core team has proposed a similar increase to 1.6MB effective through SegWit. Hence, the divisiveness of this issue isn't just about the numbers, but it is regretably devolved into a political power struggle with one side apparently wanting to demote the other side. "Big blockists" have long seen no harm in putting full nodes datacenters, backing their logic up with such gems as "Satoshi said this was fine 8 years ago therefore it's fine now". Meanwhile the "small blockists" - who are comprised of the very people who optimized Bitcoin full nodes to the point where we can now have this very debate - believe you need desktop PC users of full nodes to have a truly P2P network.

[1]: http://gavinandresen.ninja/does-more-transactions-necessaril...

Re: Bitcoin Is Dead, Long Live Bitcoin

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem however is that a nation's currency is arguably the primary source of it's sovereignty. The reverse is also true--any significant currency creates sovereignty by elevating the power of those with the greatest influence over that currency. In the case of Bitcoin, the "core" developers, in addition to the highest-volume miners, have been elevated to the sovereign position. Rather than a distributed statel…

> In the case of Bitcoin, the "core" developers, in addition to the highest-volume miners, have been elevated to the sovereign position. I'm far from being a Bitcoin expert but from understanding: In the end Bitcoin is just a piece of Open Source software. Every user (including the miners) decides which version of the software (and ultimately which version of the blockchain) they like to use. Everyone can write his o…

The blockchain is open source software, and anyone can create a currency based on it. That's why you have dogecoin, litecoin, etc. However, in order for a currency to be valuable, people have to use it, and bitcoin is the only cryptocurrency that has really taken off.

Re: Bitcoin Is Dead, Long Live Bitcoin

#197
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it an issue? Conundrum? Regardless, it's unsolvable, and I do empathize with the people who complain or offer their own (non)solutions. > If they were just GPU cluster datacenters, despite their scale, they still would not compete with the distributed power of millions of home users desktops to as much a ludicrous degree as modern ASIC miners are in the Bitcoin space. Do you suggest efficiencies of scale don't a…

> the majority of the hashing rate with high efficiency rigs in well-connected datacenters with low priced electricity. The only time this is economically viable is when you both have a large enough economy and when your marginal hashrate gains over the swarm are significant enough to invest in. My point is that if your algorithm is CPU / GPU favored, of course you can make specialized hardware, but as long as the pe…

Ethereum is addressing this. They made sure that the algorithm was bothering by memory bandwidth, to try and make it harder to create specialised ASIC hardware.

Re: Bitcoin Is Dead, Long Live Bitcoin

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>have you tried to buy plane tickets with a credit card? It takes me a solid half hour every time Who exactly are you buying plane tickets from? The last time I bought tickets, it took less than a minute to pay with a credit card. I spent more time searching for a flight with wifi.

Maybe his country has different rules about this sort of thing? Or maybe airlines/credit card companies have different rules for his country?

Or maybe it's pure hyperbole to support a narrative that Bitcoins are easier than credit cards.

Bitcoin transactions can take up to 10-15 minutes just to complete.

Re: Bitcoin Is Dead, Long Live Bitcoin

#199
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Lightning network is not based on advanced Bitcoin scripting, in the sense that Bitcoin script makes it possible or something. Bitcoin script is, rather, an impediment which has added a huge amount of complexity to Lightning. The same principle expressed without Bitcoin script can be explained in a few minutes[1] 1. http://altheamesh.com/blog/universal-payment-channels/

You are wrong. Lightning works by using smart contract logic. For Bitcoin in particular, that involves using Bitcoin scripting using real Bitcoin transactions. That blogpost is basically describing lightning. Lightning Network has explicitly described instant cross-chain swaps privately, and publicly for many months.

Yes, and on a platform that allows for arbitrary logic, like a Turing-complete blockchain, or just a regular server, Lightning-like transactions are trivial. They can be described in minutes, and implemented in weeks. Due to the limitations of Bitcoin script, Lightning takes 60 pages to describe and is still not implemented. It's a revolutionary concept, hobbled by an antiquated platform.
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