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Hire Literally Anyone

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Re: Hire Literally Anyone

#41
I don't think the author's suggestion of hiring people to "just sit there and watch/talk with (senior devs)" for 30k/year makes much economic sense.

Also the explicit discrimination based up on how represented applicants' "communities" are being recommended ahead of looking at actual technical skills is disturbing. I don't think it's illegal, but I also don't think it's good business or ethical.

Honestly, this kind of rule is how schools like Harvard keep low numbers of Asians (or in the past, Jews).

Re: Hire Literally Anyone

#42
When I was starting out right out of school, the corporate bank I went to work for had a 3 month program for recent grads to teach basic programming and database design along with company coding rules. They had non-coders in this program and started from scratch. Some of the folks in it with me were English majors. It was very successful and everyone in the program I kept in touch with went on to great careers. You interviewed for the company with round-robin interviews where 6 different department heads would have a sit down interview with you one at a time throughout a day. There was no coding involved.

I personally did very well there, went on to a financial services startup of all folks who'd left said bank and then branched out on my own doing web applications for clients and building a successful open source project with millions of users. I'm not sure if I'd get through the modern code-in-front-of-us-at-a-whiteboard approach that all the tech companies seem to favor now-a-days.

Re: Hire Literally Anyone

#43
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Standardized testing doesn't measure the same skills needed to be successful at creative work. Please don't ever do this.

Sure, that's why every college relies on them for admissions, not to mention everyone taking the GRE / MCAT for grad school. Are applied sciences grad programs not "creative work" in your mind? Standardized tests statistically predict success within those programs. http://portal.scienceintheclassroom.org/sites/default/files/...

Thanks for backing up your claim with a citation to directly relevant research. I wish others in contentious threads could to the same.

Re: Hire Literally Anyone

#44
I'm a self-taught career changer and work for a team that has several new developers transferred from other departments.

It works out surprisingly well. The 2-3 experienced devs and myself do the harder development parts and the new developers are actually quite valuable as they contribute plenty to the code but also often explain some of the business considerations from other departments.

Re: Hire Literally Anyone

#45
Wow, what a crock of shit. How did this get to the top of HN?

- It seems the author has some problem with technical people but they never state what the problem is.

- The author identifies that technical people aren't strong on "Problem solving, teamwork, self-teaching, communication, attention to detail, organization, etc." What the shit? These are exactly what makes technical people so strong.

Maybe the author doesn't like the terse and functional communication method used by technical people; but if they can't handle technical people or understand why we talk that way then they are the problem.

- "we need to value non-code skills much more highly and explicitly." They never explain why you want to hire janitors with mathematics intuition, or brain surgeons who can also tap dance; but if you're a programmer then you damn well better be extrovert! I don't care if you can code just give me a nice conversation about sports and cars. Idiot.

- "But resumes, interviews, the whole hiring process is set up to focus on technical ability."

Actually a very tiny tiny portion of Silicon Valley hires on extreme programming challenges. The 99.999% rest of companies all over the rest of the world hire based on how much they like you in the interview - causing much frustration for people who are highly skilled and eager and ready to go for some job but got turned away because they were brogrammer enough.

- "Hiring devs is really hard". What? How? Because there aren't enough? Because of some other problem? Just stating shit out of the ether doesn't make it true. A bit of introspection and elucidation would go a long way.

- "Can't code? GTFO." If you were an engineer you'd be told to GTFO. If you were a pilot you'd be told to GTFO. If you were a surgeon you'd be told to GTFO. If you were an accountant you'd be told to GTFO.

The only places that don't tell you to GTFO are fast food and strip joints. I can see the author holds IT skills in high esteem.

This article is a pile of shit.

Re: Hire Literally Anyone

#46

"Growing" people is totally doable. I worked at a company that couldn't find DBAs in the late 90s for a reasonable salary. They would pluck kids too smart for call center work and put them in database apprenticeships. They deal with support cases, do drudge work fixing data problems cause by one of the applications, investigate chargebacks, etc. 4/6 that worked for me are all high end tech folks now. Another example…

As a DBA I think if you have an installation of considerable size you really absolutely need one of those high salaried people. The rest - sure have juniors. But there is a reason people with a lot of experience demand a lot and that's because all of the little things we know make up for a lot of improvements and help when things go bad.

Re: Hire Literally Anyone

#47
> We desperately need new paths to success and we desperately need to lower the barriers to entry. Our current approach is so black-and-white. Can you code? Here's $70k+. Can't code? GTFO.

Wait WHAT?! How is that bad? Who does this benefit other than people that want to do a job that they're not actually qualified for? "Can you do this thing or not" is a pretty fair test of if you deserve the job!

Re: Hire Literally Anyone

#48
post #35

There is no shortage of developers. There is a shortage of perfect developers that meet every preconceived notion of lazy companies that don't believe they have any responsibility to develop and grow people. There will always be a shortage of top performers in any field. If only top performers are acceptable to you, you will have a very tough time growing. I have to laugh when I see these posts where people have 'dis…

There's also an oversupply of companies trying to create essentially the same product. If we could cut back on that we'd have a glut of programmers. It's just a bigger version of the work expanding to fill the time budget.

Just in my city the last two months I saw job openings for two different companies trying to organize people giving away stuff for free, and neither of those companies were Craigslist, Freecycle or the Buy Nothing Project.

On each project I've been on I've spent upwards of 20% of my time recreating a variation on software I had at another job, and I think I care more about reuse and force multipliers than the vast majority of people. And when I'm using libraries, I feel like I'm working a lot harder than I should have to.

Fred Brooks claimed an Amdahl's Law style effect with additional programmers, and I don't think he's wrong (at least not about that). If everyone on a team of 10 started needing to do 10% less work, we could just about put off hiring two more people to complete our deliverables.

Where I do think he's wrong is his use of a Surgical Team as the ideal for programming. One person in charge and a bunch of people assisting. I think that given the world has largely rejected that section of an otherwise brilliant book, that people generally agree with me that Fred had this part dead wrong. I think rather we should work like professional athletes do in team sports, and we would get about 3 times better at what we do.

I was a cyclist when I was younger, and for a time it was popular for pros to write books or articles with advice. I was surprised to learn that a professional athlete isn't crazy better than me at any one thing. It's the fact that they're 20% better at half a dozen things (including genetics), and the multiplier makes them be able to go twice as far and half again as fast. Dedication, mastery, and a small team of people looking out for them, not just mutant genes or dumb luck.

As programmers, what do we study to raise our game? How computers work. To me this is like a quarterback or a sprinter learning how cleats are made to make him a better, or a cyclist how carbon fiber frames are built. Did I do that? Sure, and it's useful, but not as useful as understanding how your own body functions. By comparison computer programmers know almost nothing about how human brains work, and all of our output comes from them. We don't even have our eye on the target.

Basically, to be a professional athlete, you have to understand human physiology to a degree most people know nothing about. You have a team of people whose job it is to explain it to you and keep you working well within its limits. Do athletes get better by gritting their teeth and keeping at it? Sure, that's only one part of a greater whole. If you listen to some developers, that's all we need to do. Tough it out, white knuckle style. Effort measures all. People who complain about how the design of the code base makes it hard to remember are invalidated, called whiners or told to sack up.

As long as that's our pattern we'll never raise our game much.

Re: Hire Literally Anyone

#49

I like how he assumes that test engineering and project management are things you can just "fill someone's time with" until they learn something useful, like coding AND that someone will take 30k a year for. Really? In the valley, both test engineers and PMs for software eng projects are >90k/year positions. I've done both of those jobs and they've both required me already knowing how to code, writing code, and havin…

[deleted]

Re: Hire Literally Anyone

#50
post #34

> We represent ourselves as front-end devs instead of INTJ devs This is a good thing. INTJ and other Meyers-Briggs types have no basis in science and they aren't related to what work a person can do for a business.

A good rule of thumb is that if a model of humans asserts that we fit into an enumerated set of "types", it's probably either substantially incomplete or outright pseudoscience.
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