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Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

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Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#181

Post by goldbrick »

vinceguidry wrote: post #104
api wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can live on basic income and/or welfare, but not all that well. You'll be poor. You'll be living in a bad neighborhood or a crummy tiny apartment and won't be able to buy very much. Most ambitious people -- the people who have personality characteristics that lead them to achieve interesting things -- want more than this. As a result, most are not willing to live exclusively on the dole. The thing a basic income…

> You'll be poor. Most people are poor. > Most ambitious people Most people are not ambitious. > Personally I think a minimal basic income could go a long way toward eliminating bullshit jobs Is that something we really want? I read an article a few months ago about a government program that literally created bullshit jobs for willing, unemployed people to go to so they could keep up their skills. People who went thr…

> Personally, I'd prefer a bullshit job over no job.

You realize of course that this runs completely counter to your whinging about supposed freeloaders.

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#182

Post by gnaritas »

vinceguidry wrote: post #62
gnaritas wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> he idea behind basic income is to remove day-to-day struggle from people's lives. If only they didn't have to worry where their next rent check is coming from, then potentially a huge groundswell of human capital could rise out of nowhere and carry us all into a new age. That is not at all what basic income is about. The point of basic income is not as a means to enable anything; it's a natural byproduct of and sol…

> The point of basic income is not as a means to enable anything; it's a natural byproduct of and solution to a problem, the problem of ever increasing automation removing the need for human labor. I disagree. Humans tend to create new market segments in response to this problem. Service jobs, creative jobs, people are remarkably effective at finding ways to be productive. Basic income almost seems like a measure foc…

> Basic income almost seems like a measure focused on finding ways for people to be unproductive.

You know, this is an old fashioned puritan work ethic thing as well; people don't need to be productive, they need to be happy and if they can be happy without "having" to work due to technological advancement that makes work a moot point, why shouldn't they be?

"Productivity" is something we can get more and more from machines and eventually enough of it that the vast bulk of society can move beyond work and enjoy life. Work that isn't required is called a hobby, and our ultimate goal should be to let our tech replace our need to work; it'd be great if everyone just had hobbies they enjoyed and found fulfilling.

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#183

Post by benten10 »

benten10 wrote: post #38
vinceguidry wrote: post #12

I'm cautiously enthusiastic about basic income. I want to believe that it really can change everything, until that nagging doubt of "but human nature just doesn't work that way!" inevitably kills the buzz. The idea behind basic income is to remove day-to-day struggle from people's lives. If only they didn't have to worry where their next rent check is coming from, then potentially a huge groundswell of human capital…

A really good example to look at is (apparently) the case of how Arab migrants feel 'included' in Belgium vs. in Canada. Apparently, in Belgium, the welfare system is targeted towards providing financial incentives to less-fortunate people, awhile the Canadian welfare system is more directed towards 'fulfilling life'. Apparently a lot of immigrants to Belgium migrate to Canada even if they make more 'free' money in B…

Here's the link (I meant Chris Blattman, not Tyler Cowen. Sorry for misleading, people!):

https://chrisblattman.com/2015/12/01/this-graph-says-the-wel...

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#184

Post by benten10 »

stcredzero wrote: post #106
benten10 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A really good example to look at is (apparently) the case of how Arab migrants feel 'included' in Belgium vs. in Canada. Apparently, in Belgium, the welfare system is targeted towards providing financial incentives to less-fortunate people, awhile the Canadian welfare system is more directed towards 'fulfilling life'. Apparently a lot of immigrants to Belgium migrate to Canada even if they make more 'free' money in B…

Searching "Tyler Cowen Belgium Canada" isn't being helpful. Could you post a link?

I meant Chris Blattman, oops!

Money quote from the link: Here is Verwimp:

Belgium has a very elaborate welfare state. All citizens have health coverage, schools and universities charge no or few fees, child benefits, unemployment benefits, pensions, are all in place. But this comes at a cost of a closed labour market, meaning a labour system that heavily protects those who are in, but makes entry for newcomers very difficult.

It does not seem to be poverty, but exclusion. Philip wrote to me:

One of my students from African origin, graduating from our MA program, told me (before the Paris attacks) « it is easier to get unemployment benefits in Belgium than to get a job ». He decided to move to Canada. That summarises it. Migrants and their families have full access to the allocations of the welfare state, but face daunting challenges when they want to get ahead in life.

…I am not looking at individual factors to join IS, as young adults across European cities many share similar reasons, but for ‘structural’ factors that make the situation different in some countries compared to others.

Here's the link I saw the other day:

https://chrisblattman.com/2015/12/01/this-graph-says-the-wel...

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#185

Post by benten10 »

Chris Blattman quotes this really nice research that says that employment by itself does not explain inclusiveness.

Link: http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2015/11/ide...

Here's the money quote (posted elsewhere in the thread too):

>Here is Verwimp:

>Belgium has a very elaborate welfare state. All citizens have health coverage, schools and universities charge no or few fees, child benefits, unemployment benefits, pensions, are all in place. But this comes at a cost of a closed labour market, meaning a labour system that heavily protects those who are in, but makes entry for newcomers very difficult.

>It does not seem to be poverty, but exclusion. Philip wrote to me:

>One of my students from African origin, graduating from our MA program, told me (before the Paris attacks) « it is easier to get unemployment benefits in Belgium than to get a job ». He decided to move to Canada. That summarises it. Migrants and their families have full access to the allocations of the welfare state, but face daunting challenges when they want to get ahead in life.

>…I am not looking at individual factors to join IS, as young adults across European cities many share similar reasons, but for ‘structural’ factors that make the situation different in some countries compared to others.

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#186

Post by grecy »

beat wrote: post #103
chc wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the fear is that it will disproportionately attract people who are a net drag on society. People being born into a society will show a wide range of personality types and can be molded further by society into what it needs, but people who move to a country specifically for a basic income might tend to be pathological cases.

Nobody who is so lazy that they won't work a job is going to go through all the challenges of legal immigration just for welfare. It's a basic logic issue.

Having gone through immigration myself (and still working on citizenship 7 years later...) I agree 100%.

The process is extremely long and difficult, and while I persevered, my brother who is an Engineer gave up because it was too much hassle.

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#187

Post by notahacker »

hyperpallium wrote: post #178
vinceguidry wrote: post #12

I'm cautiously enthusiastic about basic income. I want to believe that it really can change everything, until that nagging doubt of "but human nature just doesn't work that way!" inevitably kills the buzz. The idea behind basic income is to remove day-to-day struggle from people's lives. If only they didn't have to worry where their next rent check is coming from, then potentially a huge groundswell of human capital…

Also, past aristocrats. Many (the only?) scientists were aristocrats. But most of them did nothing but, at most, develop byzantine courtly fashion. Basic income will probably yield a similar proportion of doers. In a wider perspective, life has become easier for humans over the last 15,000 years. Does this mean we are less motivated; or have more energy available for non-immediate needs?

Never mind historic aristocrats, what about the stay-at-home spouses, adult offspring and other working-age dependents of today's moderately well off? What do they do with their time?

It's a pretty pertinent question if we're about to extend financial benefits previously only paid to people at least notionally looking for (or unable to) work to this much larger group of working age people who hitherto haven't signalled that they actually need the money...

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#188

Post by Joof »

venomsnake wrote: post #57

It will fail. Big time. Not on ideology, but on one simple term - basic income can be used only with strong import tariffs - otherwise it becomes a huge capital outflow out of the country.

Makes sense, but I simply don't have the background to agree with you.

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#189

Post by lifeisstillgood »

vinceguidry wrote: post #12

I'm cautiously enthusiastic about basic income. I want to believe that it really can change everything, until that nagging doubt of "but human nature just doesn't work that way!" inevitably kills the buzz. The idea behind basic income is to remove day-to-day struggle from people's lives. If only they didn't have to worry where their next rent check is coming from, then potentially a huge groundswell of human capital…

But ... They do.

When I was younger I lived off the (UK) state for a while. I ran political campaigns to protect our right to silence, volunteered nightly at a suicide hotline and worked on clean water projects. Friends of mine produced artwork and installations.

Eventually we all got proper jobs, some making iron-sculptures for a living, some putting on weight in offices. But a lot of productive work was done. Now we were in our early twenties, we would have done something, but I remember my room-mate staggering in from a dead end job and slumping down as I went off to my second "volunteer" job.

It seemed far more acceptable 20 years ago to do this but most humans will do something meaningful with their lives if the next few months rent is sorted out.

It's the worry about where next weeks meals and shelter are coming from that limit most people's horizons, not a in are lack of artistry or passion in their soul.

Re: Finland’s basic income plan could change everything

#190

Post by ebfe »

rbrogan wrote: post #36

Would anyone, personally, take something like this as an opportunity to do open source work and/or research projects? Or do you feel like you want/need money as a motivator to be your most productive and a way to keep score in the game?

Money, without a doubt. I wouldn't do a day of work in my life if it didn't carry personal gain.
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